openinverter forum

sfk wrote: ↑Mon Feb 18, 2019 9:57 pm - BMW Mini >02
- Toyota Gen2 MR2

And the Gen3 MR-S too I believe.

sfk wrote: ↑Mon Feb 18, 2019 9:57 pm - VW Golf Jetta Bora Beetle Passat around 2000ish
- BMW 3 series E46

I couldn't find any vacuum pumps on the VWs or 3 series. Most brake boosters were plumbed to manifold vacuum solely.

So a bit more research reveals the existence of electric A/C pumps. Looks like some of these were used on older EVs and hybrid cars. Manufacturers are aiming towards heatpump setups. The later model Leaf is an example of this.

Sanden is a big manufacturer that makes many AC compressors for the ca industry. Most of these are driven off the accessory belt of the engine. They do produce some that are electric however. Also under the Hella brand. Looks like this -
Sanden electric AC pump
Gen2 Evo 33cc 48V & 432V/ LIN & CAN

They were fitted to several Mercedes / Smart and Volvo cars and vans.

Part Numbers
8FK 351 342-021 / SHS33-4155 - Mercedes Benz B-Class electric drive, 2014+ Vito diesel van (W447), Smart Fortwo II electric
8FK 351 342-031 / SHS33-4170 - Volvo FH16 heavy truck 750EEV (also for stationary air-conditioning systems)
8FK 351 342-041 / SHS33-4166 - Volvo V60 2.4 Hybrid D6 AWD
8FK 351 342-051 / SHS33-4182 - Mercedes Benz S400 Hybrid 2014+
LUCAS ELECTRICAL : ACP01059
VOLVO : 31315123, 36002047, 36011308

I think they are all the same pump just different mounting hole configuration. As far as I can tell these units simply take the place of the engine driven AC compressor and fit in with an otherwise conventional AC gas circuit. VERY EXPENSIVE TO BUY NEW. And probably not that common used either. Might have to put AC into my final phase...

The Nissan Leaf 2011-13 uses an electric AC pump made by Panasonic. Then they switched to Denso ES27C which are also used in Prius and Toyota Highlander hybrid and various Lexus too.

Heating is a different problem. One way to do this is to swap the thermal exchange matrix in the HVAC box with a ceramic heater element from a domestic floor heater. There could be issues with too much heat causing melting or even fire.

Another ideal is to use an inline water heater which would allow the use of the existing heater fluid circuit without modifying the HVAC box. I like this idea a bit more because it could allow the potential for pre-heating the motor and battery pack on cold days while tethered to the charger. I know the Leaf battery pack has no such thermal management but I will be taking the cells out of the pack and reconfiguring to the spaces I have available, so potentially have the chance to consider coolant circuits at that time. Early Nissan Leaf had a PTC heater.
Nissan Leaf PTC heater

There are engine block heaters which I think are designed for use with trucks and machinery operating in cold climates to prevent them freezing up between uses. Also the electric Smart car uses an inline water heater.

Smart Fortwo electric inline water heater

If I want to reuse the existing HVAC system without modification, I need both warm fluid and cold AC gas.

sfk wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:25 pm It looks to me the Audi and Volvo vacuum pumps are the same but with different mountings.

I think they are in fact Zytek Hella UP28 pumps.

Hello,

Yap, I received with Leaf battery pack also this PTC heater and is still waiting for some experiments. I saw somewhere, that inside are IGBT to start/stop PTCs and some logic board to use CAN commands. My idea was (because my konwledge of this can steering is to small) bypass logic and make some simple steering to IGBT and have level1-2-3 power for heating.
Of course maybe someone knows more about this - will be clean job

Have been looking more closely about the cabin heating issue. I think I will be willing to put AC cooling into a later phase. I can open windows in summer, but heating in winter is going to be more important.

Initially I was thinking about keeping a coolant circuit running through the original heat exchange core in the HVAC system, and using a heater to warm this fluid. My intention was to avoid modifying the HVAC and just continue to provide what it was expecting (warm fluid from the engine bay).

Now I'm not so sure about the efficiency of this approach going through several energy conversions when you could go more direct using a PTC heater core. There is also tubing, insulation, reservoir, pump and the fluid itself to consider all adding to weight and the thermal inertia of it all. One benefit of that idea is that you could have the coolant heated up when on the charger and then might be able to stay somewhat warm for awhile after disconnecting if your reservoir is big enough.

The Positive Thermal Coefficient heater cores are remarkable things. I wasn't aware of there self regulation and safety features. Basically the hotter they get, the more resistance they create, thereby limiting current flow and setting their temperature. If there is no airflow across the core to cool it, the power consumption drops right down.

Question: would it be best to use a high voltage unit (say 220-600V) or a 12V system?

sfk wrote: ↑Wed Feb 27, 2019 7:17 pmQuestion: would it be best to use a high voltage unit (say 220-600V) or a 12V system?

I wouldn't go for a 12V heater. I assume you need a 2kW heater to be able to heat the cabin and consequently you'd need a 2kW DC/DC converter.

Righto. That would be a better idea. The PTC I'm considering is 200-600V 1000W AC or DC input. Just need to check the dimensions which will be the limiting factor as to maximum output.

So this means it could be powered directly from the battery pack?

sfk wrote: ↑Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:18 pm Righto. That would be a better idea. The PTC I'm considering is 200-600V 1000W AC or DC input. Just need to check the dimensions which will be the limiting factor as to maximum output.

So this means it could be powered directly from the battery pack?

I am still trying to start 5kW Ampera heater. It would be ideal choice. In the meantime i made do with normal 2kW water heater from dishwasher. Once connected to 360Vdc it can produce 5kW of heating power. This is enough to vaporize 2L of water-glycol mixture we normally use in EV cars.
Also i noticed this heater made for AC uses thermostat switch to control temperature. This is regular bimetal switch which would stick with HVDC voltage.
So i took one AEV52012 20A 360VDC 12Vdc controlled relay from Nissan Leaf precharge system and bypassed the switch on the heater. https://www.components-mart.com/product ... 52012.html
I put another 85°C thermostat switch inline on the hose after heater and wired it so that it controls DC relay operation. I operate +12V side to relay by a switch in cabin, while thermo switch cuts path to GND in case fluid gets over 85°C. System works good, but is bulkier than Ebspracher 5kW heater in Ampera. Of course 12V switch also switches on pump that circulates fluid to the exchanger.

I expect 2KW would be a mild effect in any case. You have to consider you need to heat up the air tunnels also and 2kW did not provide enough power when i tried it on 230VAC voltage. I was so much happier when i saw 5kW on DC!
Also to consider with 12Vdc is amperage. You would need 150A supply at 2kW!!! Even Ampera DCDC converter has trouble with that.

Right now i am considering Webasto Thermotop V diesel for primary heater in winter with 5kW inline heater for transition period if i have space left in my car.

Well I'm not so sure the Nissan Leaf is going to be the best donor for my Cosmo project. The Leaf is FWD and the Cosmo is RWD. This was before I found out about the Lexus hybrid gearbox and it's potential to operate purely electric and in the absence of the entire combustion engine.

This unit will fit better into the drive tunnel, has plenty of power, 2 drive ratios and is probably designed for output speeds that are further reduced through a rear differential. Perfect solution really. And with Mr Bauer working on this exact setup, I'm confident it will be solved.

This means WAAAY less work to fit and interface with the driveshaft than using the motor directly on the driveshaft, through a 2:1 reduction gear, or hacking up the rear subframe to fit the motor and reduction drive there transverse.

I watched a couple of crashed Leafs go through insurance auctions and I'm glad I waited, though I'm sure the battery packs would be useful...

sfk wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:52 am Well I'm not so sure the Nissan Leaf is going to be the best donor for my Cosmo project. The Leaf is FWD and the Cosmo is RWD. This was before I found out about the Lexus hybrid gearbox and it's potential to operate purely electric and in the absence of the entire combustion engine.

This unit will fit better into the drive tunnel, has plenty of power, 2 drive ratios and is probably designed for output speeds that are further reduced through a rear differential. Perfect solution really. And with Mr Bauer working on this exact setup, I'm confident it will be solved.

This means WAAAY less work to fit and interface with the driveshaft than using the motor directly on the driveshaft, through a 2:1 reduction gear, or hacking up the rear subframe to fit the motor and reduction drive there transverse.

I watched a couple of crashed Leafs go through insurance auctions and I'm glad I waited, though I'm sure the battery packs would be useful...

Can you please elaborate how to get the highway speed from the two motors inside Lexus transmission? I was under impression they need to have an engine on the other side counter rotating to reach full highway speed.

Yes I can.

The Lexus gearboxes are somewhat unique in their configuration due to being inline with a front mounted longitudinal ICE engine driving a rear diff and rear wheel drive. More commonly hybrids and EVs like the Leaf are transverse mounted FWD setups. ie. Prius, Corolla, Camry etc.

The transmission is somewhat conventional in volume being like a fairly large automatic transmission with engine mounting bell housing at the front and a driveshaft output at the rear.

Inside is housed 2 electric motors and a 2 stage planetary gearing system to provide 2 separate output speeds. Damien Maguire produced a video with an animated schematic which illustrates the principles of how inputs and outputs are managed with from 1 ICE, 2 motor/generators and 2 brake bands.



Typically MG1 is used in place of the starter motor to start the ICE and also as a generator. MG2 is used to drive the car in low and high speed EV mode and also in combination with the ICE at (presumably) very high speed.

The early transmission codes are L110 and are pretty easy to find pictures of. Here's one


The L110 transmissions were used in the GS450h, but there is also a L110F used in the LS600h (2007) and a L210 was used in the IS300h and GS300h (2013 onwards). I don't know what the differences are between them. I imagine the L110F has stronger internals to withstand the V8 torque and maybe the L210 is an updated design since its 7 years newer. I believe there is an even newer design L310 which has a CVT, electric motors, 3 speed automatic and overdrive in one unit. Sounds stupidly complicated, but there it is.

Nicely presented!

Do we have an idea what would be required to reach highway speeds? I think output shaft and power split device would have to be welded. Was that your intention?
Than again what would happen if you would use both inverters to make motors counterrotate? Would that make higher output speed or is that governed solely by gear shifting?
How is the shifting achieved here? By fluid coupling or other application? Does it have eletric pumo or is it internal?

I believe the MG2 in combination with the 2 stage planetary gear is capable of achieving highway speeds (100kph / 62mph). I don't personally have any need for much more than that as my focus is on range and higher speeds have a big impact on energy efficiency (and speeding fines).

The internals of the gearbox, in terms of the brake bands and such, are operated by 2 hydraulic oil pumps. 1 is conventional in the sense that it is powered by the engine input coupling like most automatic gearboxes. But there is an additional pump, which I think is external, and electrically powered. And also not sure if they share the same functions. The electric one will be operating when the engine is dead and thus not providing any fluid pressure to operate. Seems a bit redundant to have a mechanical one also, perhaps it has a higher output??

As I understand, if the electric pump fails, the gearbox fails-safe to the high speed ratio as the alternative of the failing to low speed ratio would be like pulling the car in 1st gear if it happened at high speed.

This gearbox has actually been used successfully in another BMW conversion by Vincent Tannahill who goes by the name of BigMouse or MausWerkz on various EV conversion forums. He completed his build and sold the car about a year ago. His stated intention was to release his workings as Open Source but that hasn't happened. Maybe he wanted to commercialise it. Seems to have dropped out of the scene somewhat since then.

Here's some more dated info on his project - https://hackaday.io/project/4649-diy-el ... cled-parts

The input shaft to the transmission that comes from the engine simply needs to be locked in place to the bellhousing. And then its possible to use both MotorGenerators to power the car. Pretty impressive performance too.

Hm, nice power!
I think aux pump is there to keep the transmission in gear while in hill hold or crawling mode. I have the same in Ampera car. One HV 3phase pump and i will try to use its inverter to power AC compressor...

Did you figure out the proper mechanics for shifting? In Ampera i have a table for manually switching solenoids to get power split device and clutch in line. But for me gearbox is just too damn heavy to put in 406.

I am looking forward to seeing your progress.

I don't actually have one of these hybrid gearboxes yet. I'm kinda dependant on pathfinding done by Damien (Jack Bauer on these forums) before I'll be ready to dive in and follow his lead. I have no control electronics experience and I'm frankly worried about killing myself.

I imagine the gearbox is entirely computer controlled and most likely CAN. Not sure on the logic used to manage those different gear configurations for appropriate speed output. In likelyhood the control logic would have to be replaced in order to function without the ICE and with MG1 inputting torque (which it never normally does).

Lexus constantly refers to this as an "E-CVT" gearbox. ie Electronic Constant Variable Transmission, but from the schematic I see no evidence of any such CVT device. There are 2 fixed ratios for output and the input is regulated by ICE engine speed and MG2 power input alone. Perhaps newer version of this gearbox (L210) are mechanically different and do feature a CVT mechanism...

arber333 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:16 am But for me gearbox is just too damn heavy to put in 406.

Yes. I remember seeing the weight of the transmission coming in around 135kg alone. This would be similar to the engine and transmission I'm taking out, but there's still 500kg of batteries to consider!

sfk wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:02 pm I imagine the gearbox is entirely computer controlled and most likely CAN. Not sure on the logic used to manage those different gear configurations for appropriate speed output. In likelyhood the control logic would have to be replaced in order to function without the ICE and with MG1 inputting torque (which it never normally does).

Lexus constantly refers to this as an "E-CVT" gearbox. ie Electronic Constant Variable Transmission, but from the schematic I see no evidence of any such CVT device. There are 2 fixed ratios for output and the input is regulated by ICE engine speed and MG2 power input alone. Perhaps newer version of this gearbox (L210) are mechanically different and do feature a CVT mechanism...

Hi!
The "E-CVT" trick is vary speed of MG1. At this video 25:00 onwards is explained how e-cvt works in prius trans axles.


Weber auto has lots of great videos about toyota prius "e-cvt" gear boxes.

sfk wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:04 pm

arber333 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:16 am But for me gearbox is just too damn heavy to put in 406.

Yes. I remember seeing the weight of the transmission coming in around 135kg alone. This would be similar to the engine and transmission I'm taking out, but there's still 500kg of batteries to consider!

what would be the combined weight of a leaf motor with gearbox ?

This looks like a good all in one solution

Sorry, it's 135kg for the electric transmission from the Lexus gs450h. The Nissan Leaf motor is 123lbs (55kg approx) bare. I think the transmission would add another 40kg or so. I don't have one to weigh sorry. Decided the gs450h would be better suited to rear wheel drive car conversion.

sfk wrote: ↑Sat Apr 27, 2019 7:41 pm Sorry, it's 135kg for the electric transmission from the Lexus gs450h. The Nissan Leaf motor is 123lbs (55kg approx) bare. I think the transmission would add another 40kg or so. I don't have one to weigh sorry. Decided the gs450h would be better suited to rear wheel drive car conversion.

I think it would be some 80Kg since i can barely lift it by myself. Yes EM63 alone would be some 55kg.

!! Planning to retire this build thread as I'm moving away from the Nissan Leaf componentry and now intend to utilize the Lexus GS450h transmission !!
!! I'll start a new thread and transfer some of the important info at some point as I keep fighting the original thread title !!

That is too bad. I managed to run a Mazda RX8 with an EM61 Leaf motor with Lebowski controler brain and encoder sensor. Voltage was 200Vdc. Motor spun up to 7000rpm, but we used original transmission anyway. To shift you have to remove throttle 2 signal so regen is at 0%.
We went to about 120km/h as we dared. We made some 120km range on 30kWh battery but still we had some 40% SOC left.

All in all it is a good combination with enough power and range. Motor doesnt even twitch temperature when driving up a long steep hill. With async motor temp would be rising fast.

Next project is to get my Pug rolling on 360Vdc with EM61 and original Leaf gearbox.

A

I've no doubts the Leaf motor is very good. Putting it into the Cosmo would involve changing the auto gearbox for a manual one which is more work than necessary as this car never came with that option. And still the power output would be 80ish kw. The GS450h has potential output closer to 250kw or so I believe.

sfk wrote: ↑Wed May 08, 2019 9:01 am I've no doubts the Leaf motor is very good. Putting it into the Cosmo would involve changing the auto gearbox for a manual one which is more work than necessary as this car never came with that option. And still the power output would be 80ish kw. The GS450h has potential output closer to 250kw or so I believe.

I see, so you want to use GS450h? I look forward to seeing it in action.

A

sfk wrote: ↑Wed May 08, 2019 9:01 amAnd still the power output would be 80ish kw.

The Leaf motor has been dyno'd at 302HP (~225kW)