openinverter forum

New Zombieverter release by Damien

https://github.com/damienmaguire/Stm32- ... /tag/2.20a

THANK YOU!

Can't wait to test on my setup

So, for context: I barely know how to code. I'm not an engineer. I barely understand even a surface-level of what the Zombieverter does. I'm not capable of contributing. I don't happen to use the Zombie VCU, so I don't have a dog in this fight. So that out of the way...

One of the utterly maddening things about open source projects is the complete lack of documentation. How the fvck is anyone supposed to be able to use this, when nothing is written down? There's like, 1000+ of these out in the wild by now.

The pool of potential contributors is people willing and able to scrape through the source code itself and reverse engineer what this might mean, or, perhaps guess and find some particular video somewhere that says it.

Maybe it's written down somewhere else.

I went through the Zombierverter VCU page on the wiki, (the place that someone who needs the documentation would presumably look), and not a single parameter is documented. The Zombie VCU has been out for how many years now? And zero documentation on parameters? Or, no links to where it might be documented instead?

And, on one hand, Damien's spearheading the project, doing what no one else can. So it shouldn't have to be his job to do. But, even from a selfish perspective, wouldn't it be more encouraging to him, to see how many more people were contributing to and using his project if it was understandable to a layman? Wouldn't it be worth documenting more fully?

My philosophy on open source projects is, it either needs to be so intuitive that anyone can start using it and understand it, or, if it's not documented it might as well not exist.

...

I dunno, not be the guy who complains about how "someone" should step up and help, I edited the Zombieverter VCU page on the wiki, created a Parameters section, and wrote down everything I think I partially understood.

https://openinverter.org/wiki/ZombieVerter_VCU#Firmware

I surely misunderstood things. And, it could be fleshed out a lot more by someone who's used or understands the VCU better. I left stubs of notes about what especially needs work.

But that is the extent of my ability.

...

Also, I suppose Damien's head just doesn't work that way, but, the lunch buffet of parameter nomenclature makes what little programming ability I have want to shrivel up and cry in a corner. I recall a time in the past that Johannes went through the VCU code with the scalpel to try to enforce one naming standard. Looks like someone doing another passthrough would tidy things up a bit.

tom91 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 02, 2024 2:07 pm New Zombieverter release by Damien

https://github.com/damienmaguire/Stm32- ... /tag/2.20a

Tried 2.20 version yesterday my setup is gs450h +zombie.. Having done 11k-miles.. I realised the IVA-shunt was not reading the udc-udc2 as I have wired it in my setup.. Changing to CAN 1/2 made no difference... Reverted back to 2.17 and all worked as expected

MattsAwesomeStuff wrote: ↑Wed Dec 04, 2024 9:23 pm Also, I suppose Damien's head just doesn't work that way, but, the lunch buffet of parameter nomenclature makes what little programming ability I have want to shrivel up and cry in a corner. I recall a time in the past that Johannes went through the VCU code with the scalpel to try to enforce one naming standard. Looks like someone doing another passthrough would tidy things up a bit.

This is essentially what you call "historically grown". While cleaning everything up is very desirable and should be done, it has a tendency to break a lot of things. Renaming parameters can lead to outdated documentation (the wiki can be updated, the videos not so much) and renumbering parameters or changing the meaning will lead to much bigger issues.

The other thing is that it's quite difficult to come up with a good and consistent naming scheme.

In total I don't think that Damien would hate the idea of a better naming scheme, but it would just involve dozens of hours of work that he doesn't really have (or can invest for that).
It just takes someone to do it, just as it took you to do the documentation. We just have to find the right someone for it
(This is not meant as criticism, I like that you did the documentation)

joeflickers wrote: ↑Thu Dec 05, 2024 7:24 am Tried 2.20 version yesterday my setup is gs450h +zombie.. Having done 11k-miles.. I realised the IVA-shunt was not reading the udc-udc2 as I have wired it in my setup.. Changing to CAN 1/2 made no difference... Reverted back to 2.17 and all worked as expected

Provide your params, did you set it to the the correct shunt type?

crasbe wrote: ↑Thu Dec 05, 2024 9:53 am I don't think that Damien would hate the idea of a better naming scheme

Its is on my list.

MattsAwesomeStuff wrote: ↑Wed Dec 04, 2024 9:23 pm I don't happen to use the Zombie VCU, so I don't have a dog in this fight.

Edited: knee jerk reaction to the wall of text

I just read your post.I am sorry but you can go eat a massive turd, I feel you are among the same mind set as the people who is driving this forum into the the ground by posting and moaning. To me this also does not feel like the right place for such a large post/or the topic you raise.

You clearly have not understood that the idea of the OI opensource projects is that each of the user contribute their bit.

Damien documents and explains things via the videos he makes. Not for everyone but the community can then take it and divulge it on the forum.

Thank you for creating the page and giving this topic of parameters a kicking.

MattsAwesomeStuff wrote: ↑Wed Dec 04, 2024 9:23 pm *** massive wall of text**

Your constant walls of text are exhausting, and generally lack much substance for how much is written.

your writing would be much more useful dedicated to filling the wiki than forum spamming. please just focus on info aggregation, you’ve proven passionate and capable of that.

I try to build/cleanup the wiki pages when I’m frustrated with documentation. But I don’t whine about it in the forums.

Tom dose a lot of work across the board. Don’t piss him off. We lost Damien, let’s not lose Tom too

MattsAwesomeStuff wrote: ↑Wed Dec 04, 2024 9:23 pm So, for context

Wait one wall of text was not enough? The lack of respect and understand of what Zombieverter is just appalling.

You are quick to judge while you try to hind behind "I have not watched it closely", this is not acceptable in shape or form.

tom91 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 05, 2024 10:01 amI feel you are among the same mind set as the people who is driving this forum into the the ground by posting and moaning.

Well, I don't think you can point to me as someone who complains without contributing. Generally I don't complain at all.

To me this also does not feel like the right place for such a large post/or the topic you raise.

That's fair. Where would be a better place to make a large post, about how the community would surely benefit from people fleshing out the documentation on this build, and where I got the ball rolling on such efforts?

The reason I chose here is because I figured there wouldn't be much conversation to derail, and because I am especially fearful of making incorrect documentation (I've done that a few times in the past), so, flagging my documentation as needing review while it's recent in people's minds, in the place where everyone is finding out about the new updates seemed like the best approach.

You clearly have not understood that the idea of the OI opensource projects is that each of the user contribute their bit.

That's possible, but I don't think so. I've, at times before, broken down the tiers that people are able to contribute. There's people designing things at the top. Then there's people who could have designed it, but (since someone else did) they don't have to, and they understand it well enough without much documentation, to be able to carry the torch further. Then there's people who could never have designed the project, but who can do things like take pictures and write procedures and things like that.

I am not criticizing Damien for not doing even more work than he already does. I did lament a bit that, from his perspective, he's very much encouraged/discouraged by the degree to which people pick up on his efforts. And if true, it would be helped a lot by perhaps doing more thorough documentation.

Damien documents and explains things via the videos he makes. Not for everyone but the community can then take it and divulge it on the forum.

Absolutely.

That's exactly my point.

And for the ~1000 units sold, and the years of Zombieverter development... not one person... in the community... has even started to document what the parameters do and how to use them? Something literally every person using the project would need to do?

So much so that the dumbest person in the community (me), who's not even using this hardware, ends up being the first person years later to write some of them down, just out of pity/sympathy for what it must be like for a novice to attempt use this hardware?

I went looking for the parameters documentation, thinking "Oh there's new variables in this release, I'll go edit the list and add the new ones". Only to find, no one has ever done it.

Wait one wall of text was not enough?

I wrote that first. And, different content for a different media for a different audience.

You seem to be offended by the volume of my words rather than their content. That's fair criticism, I am poor at being concise. And, even that medium-sized post is being misinterpreted because I was too brief in what I meant. Don't mistake my wordcount for aggression. And don't mistake my crassness for anger, I'm just being colorful.

The lack of respect and understand of what Zombieverter is just appalling. You are quick to judge while you try to hind behind "I have not watched it closely", this is not acceptable in shape or form.

I don't understand where you're coming from.

What lack of respect?

Other than teasing about the lack of nomenclature consistency (Damien is fairly good natured and self-deprecating and can laugh at himself, I don't think you have to get offended on his behalf)... what lack of respect?

I commiserate with Damien that all these people use his work without contributing back even in little ways. Note that I'm not talking about you (Tom) either.

I'm sorry that my Zombieverter knowledge is appalling to you, if my documentation is wrong, that's possible. I'm the first to flag it as questionable and did so.

I am not "judging" anyone, other than the community as a whole for not stepping up to help with documentation, and I'm not "hiding behind" anything, other than to say "I'm not smart enough for anyone to trust what I documented, it needs review."

Bratitude wrote: ↑Thu Dec 05, 2024 3:27 pmYour constant walls of text are exhausting, and generally lack much substance for how much is written.

"Constant"? How f'ckin' often do I write something like that? Once a year, if that?

Your insult is otherwise valid. I use many words, and don't clearly communicate as much as I'd like.

your writing would be much more useful dedicated to filling the wiki than forum spamming.

I think it bears fruit to highlight to the community, in the community, that more people need to step up and help in the little ways that they can.

And also, a bigger concern was that, here I've gone and done something way out of my depth, and someone may go use that information, it be wrong, and ruin their project. Knowing how light the community is on documentation has stopped me from stepping up in the past, because I sometimes think it's better to shut up on technical matters if you're not going to be 100% correct.

... but then, on counter-balance, years and 1000 users, and no one else has even taken the first step.

please just focus on info aggregation, you’ve proven passionate and capable of that.

Fair enough, but, basically anything I do needs some pretty substantial editing.

I try to build/cleanup the wiki pages when I’m frustrated with documentation. But I don’t whine about it in the forums.

Yes, and thank you, you are part of the solution not part of the problem. I appreciate how much you've documented and how good it is.

If I complain, it's extremely rare, like, not even once a year, and it's out of frustration because unlike you, I have no faith in what I document. I have a very novice level of understanding that should not be trusted. I really shouldn't be the one doing the first info dumps.

Tom dose a lot of work across the board. Don’t piss him off. We lost Damien, let’s not lose Tom too

I'm lost. What did I say at any point to or about Tom when you'd written this?

Tom created the thread telling everyone there was an update. On the topic of the update, in this thread, I had a comment. It has nothing to do with Tom and I wasn't quoting him or addressing him.

Tom, if you feel otherwise, PM me and we'll address it privately. I have accidentally offended people in the past without being aware of it.

MattsAwesomeStuff wrote: ↑Thu Dec 05, 2024 8:47 pm Damien is fairly good natured and self-deprecating and can laugh at himself, I don't think you have to get offended on his behalf

Please do not assume the relationship between myself and Damien, he came to me today mentioning youtube comments. Please take a look at who on this forum is and has been for the past year taking up the questions on Zombie things. Most of the Zombie code now days is done or reviewed by myself.

Please note your concerns you raise have been addressed by Damien, Johu, myself and others a few times unfortunately nothing has been picked up and moved on by the community.

You being "colorful" comes across as being out of the loop and not clued up on what has been a huge struggle in this community, I strongly advise you to think about how you make comments on things you do not fully understand (which you even mention in your posts).

tom91 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 05, 2024 9:18 pmPlease do not assume the relationship between myself and Damien

Whelp, if you want to talk about assumptions, then surely you shouldn't assume that I *would* know it. If you're speaking on someone else's behalf, then say so. Otherwise how would anyone know? If you would like to convey that I was just teasing, to have some humorous commentary as I've done often in the past and that Damien has appeared to enjoy from me in the past, then that would be accurate and helpful to correct any misconceptions.

Please take a look at who on this forum is and has been for the past year taking up the questions on Zombie things. Most of the Zombie code now days is done or reviewed by myself.

So, the person I was teasing about inconsistent variable nomenclature was actually you then? Okay, I understand now the claim that I was being critical of you. That said, ehn, fair enough, I can tell Damien can handle making fun of himself and being light-hearted, you're right, I don't have a good enough grasp of your personality to know how stoic you are or how sensitive.

Really, inconsistent variable names was to add some humor and levity to the conversation. It's just a silly side comment.

Please note your concerns you raise have been addressed by Damien, Johu, myself and others a few times unfortunately nothing has been picked up and moved on by the community.

Well, I'm confused. Either it has been addressed and is fixed (it seems not to be) and there's no point in bringing it up... or... nothing has been picked up on by the community. It can't be both "No one should talk about this because it's fixed" and "It's frustrating that this is not fixed".

If and you agree with me then why are you being critical of me pointing it out and calling on the community to step up and saying I don't understand how anything works?

I would think you we're on the same side here and you would be celebrating my addressing it.

You being "colorful" comes across as being out of the loop and not clued up on what has been a huge struggle in this community

What do you mean me being out of the loop?

I spend YEARS trying to get simple answers to simple questions about OI and EVBMW hardware on my build. Lots of basic operation "What does this do and how do you use it?" questions are still unanswered and not documented anywhere. And I documented the hell out of every possible bit of information I could get my hands on, to help the next person.

Brat claims it's some huge anchor to my involvement here that all I do is complain. And yet, apparently, I'm not clued in about this huge struggle for lacking documentation?

WE ARE ON THE SAME SIDE.

Why are you attacking me and insulting me for agreeing with you, taking steps to remedy the problem, and encouraging others to step up and do the same?

I'll say again, I have no dog in this fight. I'm not using Zombieverter hardware. I'm not benefiting personally from doing any of this documentation, highlighting how much is missing, or asking others to step up and review what I did and add their own contributions.

It would be the easiest thing in the world for me to just fvck off and say "Not my circus, not my monkeys" and do absolutely nothing about it.

Give yourself a magic wand. What would you like me to do instead of what I did?

MattsAwesomeStuff wrote: ↑Thu Dec 05, 2024 10:25 pm What would you like me to do instead of what I did?

Not post such long texts that are multi interpretable and just added to the wiki like you did.

I am not going to even respond to each of the points you are making in again this long winded post. This has gone way too far off topic from the update any issues that may arise because of it.

MattsAwesomeStuff wrote: ↑Thu Dec 05, 2024 8:59 pm "Constant"? How f'ckin' often do I write something like that? Once a year, if that?

Then proceeds with MASSIVE wall of text.

tom91 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 05, 2024 10:43 pmNot post such long texts that are multi interpretable and just added to the wiki like you did.

So, I should just shut up, contribute to a project I have no stake in, and not address community-wide issues that you apparently agree with as being systematic problems but not talk about them because they're already solved?

Sounds like that would lead to... nothing getting better.

Suppose years ago when the first round of the Zombieverter came out, I did the same thing then that I did today, and actually documented the parameters and explained to people how to use them, asked people to review what I wrote, and lamented that it had to be someone as inexperienced as me that did that task. And suppose then, like today, I was insulted for it and accused of meaning things I didn't say.

And suppose I had a time machine, and I could go back in time, and just delete that documentation, and delete my comments, and say "Don't worry, the community has addressed this and they've got a better solution".

... that, is the same situation we have now. I didn't add that documentation then, I didn't lament that no one else was doing it either, and... we've had several years of seeing how successful that documentation solution has been.

I am not going to even respond to each of the points you are making in again this long winded post. This has gone way too far off topic from the update any issues that may arise because of it.

Well, I gave you the opportunity to have the conversation and you choose not to fix it because it's not worth your time. It's worth your time to complain about, but when the olive branch is there, it's not worth anything further. Right.

Tell you what I'm going to do...

Next time I have the opportunity to contribute to the community, I won't. Plain and simple. You are one of the leaders in this community who's actually pushing product development. If you, Brat, Damien, and whoever else have the expectation that other contributors can only contribute directly, never have a conversation, and only ever write short posts, then it's not my place to rock the boat. I'll stay out of the way.

I cannot successfully avoid other people's imaginations on how they might interpret what I said, when I think I pretty clearly said what I meant, with no hidden motivation or meanings, and you've been unable or unwilling to demonstrate otherwise.

Carry on. I don't understand it, but I do hope your solution to the non-existent documentation works best.

Bratitude wrote: ↑Thu Dec 05, 2024 11:47 pm Then proceeds with MASSIVE wall of text.

Sure, you're right.

Everything conversation can be had in a twitter message. There is never nuance or depth or anything. Carry on.

You're literally insulting me for attempting to be thorough.

Way off topic. Anyone with specific issues related to 2.20A please open a new thread.