Nissan Leaf Motorvarianten

[easyandi]

Hello,
I'm new to the forum and have some questions about the Nissan Leaf engine.
I've seen motors connected directly to the inverter. But on ebay I also see motors with a long orange high-voltage cable. do they have the same engines?

For reasons of space, I would prefer to install the motor and inverter separately from each other. Is that possible?
Can you synchronize two Nissan Leaf motors so that one motor drives the front and one the rear axle directly on the differential?

why do you all keep the original gearbox? Isn't it easy to remove the gearbox and operate the engine directly on the differential? It would also be a weight saving.

[johu]

Hello,
I'm new to the forum and have some questions about the Nissan Leaf engine.
I've seen motors connected directly to the inverter. But on ebay I also see motors with a long orange high-voltage cable. do they have the same engines?

It is the very first version of the motor (called Gen1). The inverter will output 80 kW.

For reasons of space, I would prefer to install the motor and inverter separately from each other. Is that possible?
Can you synchronize two Nissan Leaf motors so that one motor drives the front and one the rear axle directly on the differential?

It's possible with all variants but obviously most feasible with the Gen1. Any number of motors can be "synchronized", they are just all sent the same torque command or even a different torque command for rear and front axle.

why do you all keep the original gearbox? Isn't it easy to remove the gearbox and operate the engine directly on the differential? It would also be a weight saving.

It's a matter of the ratio. If it's too high you have not enough wheel torque.

[easyandi]

Ok, the first version is not supported by the Open Inverter Controller? I can't find a suitable item in the shop.
The controller for the 2nd generation increases the output to 135kW. Can this performance also be achieved with the first generation?
80kW is not enough for the weight of the vehicle.

So is the first generation best suited for dual operation? Why is it not so possible with the second generation?
If I could also achieve 135kW with the first generation, I would be very happy and could imagine starting my project.

Do you know the dimensions (HxWxL) of the motors and inverters of each generation?
I want to see if the car has enough space for two engines.

At what RPM is the peak power? I guess somewhere at 6,000 RPM right? With 2.96:1 differential, I would get an axle speed of 2,027 RPM.
That means, I would have my peak power roughly at 100 km/h. How quickly does the power drop at higher RPM?
A speed of around 150 km/h would be sufficient for me.

I see you come from Germany too. I have read a lot about the deadline for admission 01.10.2002.
If the car is younger, an additional test from the Tüv should be necessary. Do you know how expensive it is?

[muehlpower]

Ok, the first version is not supported by the Open Inverter Controller? I can't find a suitable item in the shop.
The controller for the 2nd generation increases the output to 135kW. Can this performance also be achieved with the first generation?
80kW is not enough for the weight of the vehicle.

So is the first generation best suited for dual operation? Why is it not so possible with the second generation?
If I could also achieve 135kW with the first generation, I would be very happy and could imagine starting my project.

Do you know the dimensions (HxWxL) of the motors and inverters of each generation?
I want to see if the car has enough space for two engines.

At what RPM is the peak power? I guess somewhere at 6,000 RPM right? With 2.96:1 differential, I would get an axle speed of 2,027 RPM.
That means, I would have my peak power roughly at 100 km/h. How quickly does the power drop at higher RPM?
A speed of around 150 km/h would be sufficient for me.

I see you come from Germany too. I have read a lot about the deadline for admission 01.10.2002.
If the car is younger, an additional test from the Tüv should be necessary. Do you know how expensive it is?

What kind of car is it for which 80kW is not enough but only has a wheel diameter of 260mm?
I think you miscalculated. A car has about 60-70cm wheel diameter, that would make at 6000 RPM and i = 2.96 230km/h to 267km/h.

[Tremelune]

A lot of your questions can be answered by searching.

The 2nd generation Leaf motor and inverter can be unbolted from one another and connected electrically with thick cables. I'm not sure how long they can be (anyone?).

[easyandi]

Oh, it was a few years ago when I went to school. I multiplied the value by the radius, not the diameter. 250 km/h is more than enough and corresponds to the standard speed with a gasoline engine.

Has anyone in the forum already used two leaf motors in a car?

I have not yet found the dimensions of the motor. Can you send me the link?

[Tremelune]

https://www.diyelectriccar.com/threads/ ... es.203894/

[arber333]

Can you synchronize two Nissan Leaf motors so that one motor drives the front and one the rear axle directly on the differential?

why do you all keep the original gearbox? Isn't it easy to remove the gearbox and operate the engine directly on the differential? It would also be a weight saving.

Why does everyone wants to power their motor directly to the wheels? It is just not a good solution.
I have observed inwheel motor from Elaphe which could make 1300Nm torque directly to the wheel. It was wound for a lot of pole pairs and it could only do about 2000RPM. Nontheless you can calculate a car with 2x such motors on the rear wheels could be very fast indeed. That motor has to be specificaly wound. And then wheels would be very heavy and you would need some inwheel spring dampeners etc...

We have tried to drive the Leaf motor in 4th gear with Mazda RX8 which would be about 1:1 gear ratio. It would go from standstill but if it would have to takeoff in a hill it would struggle. 1000Nm torque is capable of moving the car, 300Nm at the wheels is not enough. Therefore you need the gearbox. And single speed gearbox is the simplest there is. 8:1 is like gas car 2nd gear. You have to calculate for optimal performance and i think engineers are waking to the truth that two stage gearbox would be the best solution.

[easyandi]

Why does everyone wants to power their motor directly to the wheels? It is just not a good solution.
I have observed inwheel motor from Elaphe which could make 1300Nm torque directly to the wheel. It was wound for a lot of pole pairs and it could only do about 2000RPM. Nontheless you can calculate a car with 2x such motors on the rear wheels could be very fast indeed. That motor has to be specificaly wound. And then wheels would be very heavy and you would need some inwheel spring dampeners etc...

We have tried to drive the Leaf motor in 4th gear with Mazda RX8 which would be about 1:1 gear ratio. It would go from standstill but if it would have to takeoff in a hill it would struggle. 1000Nm torque is capable of moving the car, 300Nm at the wheels is not enough. Therefore you need the gearbox. And single speed gearbox is the simplest there is. 8:1 is like gas car 2nd gear. You have to calculate for optimal performance and i think engineers are waking to the truth that two stage gearbox would be the best solution.

An 8: 1 ratio would reduce the speed considerably. I don't think that's practicable. What do you think, from which incline a Nissan Leaf engine can no longer start without a gearbox? I think our DIY solutions are never perfect and you always have to compromise. Actually, I would prefer the direct connection to the differential due to its simplicity. If of course there are significant disadvantages in daily driving behavior, I would have to consider an alternative. What is your gear ratio between the engine and the wheels.

[arber333]

An 8: 1 ratio would reduce the speed considerably. I don't think that's practicable. What do you think, from which incline a Nissan Leaf engine can no longer start without a gearbox? I think our DIY solutions are never perfect and you always have to compromise. Actually, I would prefer the direct connection to the differential due to its simplicity. If of course there are significant disadvantages in daily driving behavior, I would have to consider an alternative. What is your gear ratio between the engine and the wheels.

Like i said about 8:1 original Leaf drivetrain. Like having manual transmission allways in 2nd gear... But i ran the motor up to 15000rpm to 180km/h.
In any case that is quite enough for road use since at 180 air drag sucks the battery really fast.

Incline optimization is all academic here. There are design standards that car manufacturers need to consider when designing the car. Our vehicle needs to be able to climb any incline that its use was considered for. This is why Leaf drivetrain will always be best optimized for Leaf motor.

There is another factor with EVs. Electric motors ar simplified for its task. If you go and load it too much at start you wont be enjoying drive experience. Also on the other side if you go and add complex drivetrain you defeat the purpose of mechanical simplicity of the EV.
Like i said i think best option would be 2 stage gearbox driving the rear wheel pair diff. I think someone already tried with some american inline gearbox... powerglide transmission?

Some links
https://www.diyelectriccar.com/threads/ ... ion.77105/
https://www.diyelectriccar.com/threads/ ... ve.199659/

[Robert]

Like i said i think best option would be 2 stage gearbox driving the rear wheel pair diff. I think someone already tried with some american inline gearbox... powerglide transmission?

Maybe not what you're thinking of but there's this.

https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Falcon-R ... ,1266.html

[ChrisW]

I’m thinking about using the Leaf for the conversation on my 1960 Series 2 Land Rover. I live in the mountains so torque is very important to me. Here are a couple of options/comparisons that I’ve come up with…

[Tremelune]

We're getting lost in semantics. The Leaf has gearbox that is 8:1 to the wheels. If you unbolt the Leaf gearbox and use the motor in a RWD application, it's 1:1 to the differential, which is likely around 4:1.

Driving the differential directly (with a total 4:1 reduction) results in very slow acceleration and an absurdly high top speed. It's simply an inefficient solution—you leave so much on the table.

The primary reason to keep the manual transmission is because using a 2:1 TorqueBox to drive the 4:1 rear diff (for a total of 8:1 gearing) costs $3,000 and requires fabrication to mount, whereas manual transmissions are "free" with the donor car and are already mounted from the factory.

[easyandi]

Ok, slow acceleration is not a good thing. Mostly i drive in stop & go and top speed is not important. But it is nice to have.
From this point of view, a transmission makes sense.

The ratio of the differential of 3: 1 not enough? Nobody speaks of a 1:1 translation. The torque is applied directly. So I wonder how big the difference in acceleration will be.

Do you think two Leaf engines can drive an approx. 2T car with bearable driving performance? I've read a lot about the Leaf Motor and seen that you can increase the power with a larger inverter. Has anyone of you already done that? What performance is possible and will that help me with such this heavy car?

[arber333]

Ok, slow acceleration is not a good thing. Mostly i drive in stop & go and top speed is not important. But it is nice to have.
From this point of view, a transmission makes sense.

The ratio of the differential of 3: 1 not enough? Nobody speaks of a 1:1 translation. The torque is applied directly. So I wonder how big the difference in acceleration will be.

Do you think two Leaf engines can drive an approx. 2T car with bearable driving performance? I've read a lot about the Leaf Motor and seen that you can increase the power with a larger inverter. Has anyone of you already done that? What performance is possible and will that help me with such this heavy car?

Hm... try to read up on previous assertions and prove or discard them by evidence.

Now i !know! from my education 1.3T car needs approximately 1000Nm of torque to the wheels to have acceptable acceleration from standstill.
This would mean for a 2T vehicle would need some 1600Nm to the wheels. Motor itself can produce 280Nm or maybe 300Nm to the shaft. To gain 1600Nm required you would need at least 5:1 ratio. For a great acceleration which Leaf has 8:1 can produce 2400Nm without counting losses.
Note that this is similar to petrol car 2nd gear. Since petrol engine produces verly little torque from low RPM you really need 1st gear.
Electric motor can be optimised for a single gear.

And yes double the motor would double the starting torque, but would also increase amps demand on the battery!

[muehlpower]

Do a little more math. A 2t car with 50:50 weight distribution can transfer around 3000Nm per axle to the road. This corresponds to 5.4 seconds from 0 to 100 km/h. A 300Nm motor required a 10: 1 overall ratio. 3.3: 1 means about 17s at 100km/h. Do you want it?

As previous speakers have said, it doesn't make sense to use only the differential with a leaf motor. You would have fun if you use a leaf motor on the front axle and one on the rear axle, but with the leaf gearbox drive directly to the wheels.
What car is it? Maybe there are already examples of conversion.

[easyandi]

What car is it? Maybe there are already examples of conversion.

I would like a BMW e39 or, even more excitingly, an e53. The car offers a lot of space. I know both models very well. I've already worked on it a lot and know the systems.
I haven't seen an e53 project yet. But I saw the e39 project. i can't see which engine was used there.
I can't use a younger model. The car must have been registered before 01.10.2002. Before this date i like only this two cars.

If the direct connection to the differential is not possible, I have to come up with a another solution.
But i think i need two leaf motors. One will be too weak to move the car well. Maybe i have to look for another manufacturer.

Which battery size would you recommend with two motors? a range of 100 to 150 km would be enough for me.

[arber333]

I would like a BMW e39 or, even more excitingly, an e53. The car offers a lot of space. I know both models very well. I've already worked on it a lot and know the systems.
I haven't seen an e53 project yet. But I saw the e39 project. i can't see which engine was used there.
I can't use a younger model. The car must have been registered before 01.10.2002. Before this date i like only this two cars.

If the direct connection to the differential is not possible, I have to come up with a another solution.
But i think i need two leaf motors. One will be too weak to move the car well. Maybe i have to look for another manufacturer.

Which battery size would you recommend with two motors? a range of 100 to 150 km would be enough for me.

You could power the front wheels AND rear wheels using two motors. One would be connected to the front wheel pair and the other one would be mounted in transmission channel. Then you could calibrate throttles dual channels to power the car however would be best...

I am scheptical, but you could prove me wrong....

You could mount two motors on the same axle using software diff...

[easyandi]

I don't think it makes sense to use two motors on one axle. Then it would be better to use a larger motor on the axle.

I would like to continue to one engine in front and one in the back. The question is, is the power of the leaf motor enough or do i have to look for anotherone.

[Tremelune]

With batteries that can handle the draw, and a Leaf motor in the rear and up front, you're looking at 570 Nm of torque at zero kph.

This would be faster to 100kph than an E39 M5.

[muehlpower]

2t car, 66cm wheel diameter, 8: 1 ratio, 570Nm results in 6.9 m/s acceleration, i.e. 4s to 100km/h. With a battery with 360V and 1200A, if there is no field weakening before 6400RPM and the efficiency is 90%.

[arber333]

I don't think it makes sense to use two motors on one axle. Then it would be better to use a larger motor on the axle.

I would like to continue to one engine in front and one in the back. The question is, is the power of the leaf motor enough or do i have to look for anotherone.

Isnt 300Hp enough for one motor?


You just need to select inverter and battery to fit...

[easyandi]

300 hp per engine and way too much. How did the owner do that? How much kw does its inverter have?

I think the best variant for me is with two leaf motors (front and rear) and at first without a gearbox. I want to see how the car behaves. if the result not good, i can still buy two gearboxes. so i save some money at the beginning.

Now i have to invest the money in the battery. The batteries are really expensive. Have you bought ready-made used packages or put together a custom box with your own building blocks?

I'm still looking for the cheapest way. I don't know if it's possible, but can i use battery packs from a forklift truck and switch the elements in series and in parallel in the right order to get to the 400v. most forklifts run on 48v.

What do you think of the alibaba offers? i'm more cautious about these safety-critical parts at china ware.

[arber333]

300 hp per engine and way too much. How did the owner do that? How much kw does its inverter have?

800A IGBTs i think and surprisingly Leaf gen1 inverter main capacitor. He also used 450Vdc battery for more power. Brain is FOC Lebowski same as mine.
His build thread is here:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =arlo+leaf

[Tremelune]

Used OEM batteries are the best bang for buck. Model S or Leaf are popular.

If I were you, I'd get the motors fitted first and worry about the batteries last (unless you're buying two complete Leafs or something). Every month you wait, there are more wrecked Teslas, Leafs, Bolts, and Mach-Es...

Do you have a budget in mind? A highway-capable dual motor setup with 100mi range starts at about USD$20k.