VW Mild Hybrid Starter Alternator

[Alibro]

One of these would be perfect for driving a standard OEM power steering pump rather than the noisy GM unit.

[EV_Builder]

Lets start with a proper canlog which we can use to make it work.

[cherridge]

Unfortunately i have no access to anything with one of these in them, fuzzing i think it's beyond me, and trying to work a "layer in" (IE past the can interface trying to light up parts of the board manually) again is a minefield :/

[crasbe]

I was bored and poured the CAN logs from the first posting into my CRC Magic Byte Cracking script ( viewtopic.php?p=48154#p48154 ) and it looks like the messages in 0x01A0, 0x01AC, 0x02C0 seem to have the same magic number system as the charger (not surprising).
I'm not sure about the results for 0x0000 and 0x03C0. And I didn't check the extended IDs.

Those are the results:

Code: Select all

ID: 00000000, Magic Bytes: 0xE8,
ID: 000001A0, Magic Bytes: 0xCD,0x14,0x24,0x55,0x0D,0x60,0x1E,0x43,0x9A,0xAB,0xD5,0x53,0x12,0x19,0xA5,0xC3,
ID: 000001AC, Magic Bytes: 0xF2,0xA4,0x2A,0x3A,0xB4,0x3F,0x93,0xA8,0x1D,0x24,0xB3,0x32,0x19,0x38,0x5A,0x51,
ID: 000002C0, Magic Bytes: 0xE3,0xE7,0xA9,0x1F,0x27,0xA2,0xCF,0xC2,0x50,0x76,0xCD,0x25,0xD0,0x1A,0x60,0x30,
ID: 000003C0, Magic Bytes: 0x40,0x1E,

[loopyengineeringco]

Following this thread with great interest. My use case is attaching one of these to a small diesel engine and have it charge a 48v lfp house battery. I'm hoping it would be a case of sending a canbus message with the desired voltage set point. The motor part is a bonus .
Very insteresting findings so far guys, keep going keep going

[boekel]

These things would be sooo nice for a hybrid boat setup, or as a motor in a small boat.

I don't have any skills to help develop this, but if I can help in any way... maybe provide hardware / a battery, etc.

I'm located in the Neterlands.

[crasbe]

The most important contribution would be more CAN logs to get a better idea how to control the motor.
It *might* be simple torque commands in one of the messages but no way to be sure without CAN logs.

@loopyengineeringco: I don't think it would be that easy. Usually you send torque commands to the motor, which would be derated by the BMS at some point if the battery voltage rises to high. I doubt that the motor has those features built in.

[mjc506]

Is there anything we can do without CAN logs? I'm happy to get hold of one of these (I'm sure I'll use it somewhere) and can throw CAN at it (assuming the CRC etc is the same as the VW chargers?)

Edit: Although supply seems to have dried up somewhat haha

[Swing]

Is al that is needed (to continue) a CAN bus log from such a mild-hybrid Golf? Would it be sufficient through the OBDII port? Or perhaps these messages don't reach the OBDII port or are on a different CAN bus.
Would be great not having to modify such a car to get the log.

Of course that would not include the LIN port, so if it is controlled that way, we wouldn't know.

One of these would be perfect for driving a standard OEM power steering pump rather than the noisy GM unit.

Or what about driving an existing AC compressor in an EV conversion?

[Swing]

And this mild hybrid system typically comes with a nice 48v to 12v converter that is rated at 2kW and probably also CAN bus controlled.
Of course there is also the battery but that is not so interesting. It only uses 250Wh of the 600Wh, it is bulky. But yeah it can do 9 to 12kW, so that makes sense.

[crasbe]

Is al that is needed (to continue) a CAN bus log from such a mild-hybrid Golf? Would it be sufficient through the OBDII port? Or perhaps these messages don't reach the OBDII port or are on a different CAN bus.

The OBD II Port does not give you (direct) access to the PT CAN and Hybrid CAN busses. But there are inductive CAN sniffers available, so you don't have to cut/probe the wires.

I don't have personal experience with those though, so I can't really point you in the right direction here.

[addvalue]

These things would be sooo nice for a hybrid boat setup, or as a motor in a small boat.

I don't have any skills to help develop this, but if I can help in any way... maybe provide hardware / a battery, etc.

I'm located in the Neterlands.

Hi boekel, I might want to take you up on this offer, also for boating, and located in Amsterdam. See PM for phonenr.

[Swing]

Hi boekel, I might want to take you up on this offer, also for boating, and located in Amsterdam. See PM for phonenr.

What do you mean by that? Are you going to do some testing on this VW generator?

Anyway, boekel can help you with boat batteries for sure!

[addvalue]

What do you mean by that? Are you going to do some testing on this VW generator?

Anyway, boekel can help you with boat batteries for sure!

No need for batteries, looking for the generator.

[Swing]

I was just thinking, wouldn't it be possible that the unit will actually decide for itself if it will generate or add power?
In such a case, it would do that based on CAN bus information providing the battery level, the petrol engine RPM and throttle position etc.
It is not very likely, because most hybrid systems are actually controlled from a central ECU.
But if it is the case, it would need to be fed different kind of CAN data.

There are also some (Chinese) manufacturers selling test benches for the motor/generator as well as the whole set with the DC-DC and the battery.
That might be easier than working on an existing car, but you would have to buy the test bench, just for some information.

It is also not clear to me if the DC-DC is bidirectional. It is sometimes referred to as bidirectional, but I never read about the bidirectional option in VW information on the system.

[Swing]

I also noticed the mild hybrid 48v generators from Ford, BMW and Mercedes all seem to come from SEG Automotive (Bosch splitoff company). So that is not an inhouse development, and could be easier to get CAN bus information and so on. But that is an assumption.
Anyway, since the same unit goes into a tiny Ford EcoBoost and also into AMGs, a lot of models out there are shipped with this unit. So availability should be good.

[crasbe]

The Bosch iBooster brake assist all use different CAN messages for different car manufacturers. I mean... it makes more sense to adapt a small gear to the gearbox rather than changing the whole gearbox around it.

Therefore I think getting logs from another manufacturer only has limited value.

[Swing]

That probably makes sense, unfortunately.

I think it gets more attractive to use one of the Hyundai/Kia ones, that come without the CAN bus controlled inverter.
Yes that sort of defeats the point of having a nice integrated system you could control via CAN bus.
But it could just be used as a cheap electric motor source, and then bring your own controller.
Here is a video in which the Hyundai one is opened up.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_yN1WMWpnA
It is really just an electric motor with a resolver and a temp sensor.

[Swing]

Here some more somewhat general info on the VW Mild hybrid system.
This document gives a system description with some diagnostic addresses.
The document also states that the DC-DC converter is bidirectional, so the 48v battery will get charged when the 12v battery is getting charged by something external.

VW Mild Hybrid system description.pdf

(615.94 KiB) Downloaded 873 times

[transistorman]

Ahoy from the states, Interestingly this is 'nearly the same motor' as the 48v jeep e-torque and 48v dodge 1500, Ive also been working on reverse engineering it, without a test vehicle. Here's a pile of photos and somewhat un-sorted digging:
https://transistor-man.com/everything_etorque.html

note that everything is in-progress so things may move around as i sort out findings

[transistorman]

Does anyone know the part number of the communications connector?

The only two other parts of note that i found recently:
There's a yt video of one of these running on a bench with 0 technical details:
and a note from a Technical Service Bulletin, regarding a specific register? Its vague

[transistorman]

One more thought, the Audi Workshop Manual excerpts i could find, referenced a test tool that can be used to run diagnostic tests, maybe its easier to get one of those and grab the can messages between it and the motor? I haven't figured out exactly what test tool they are referencing, anyone have any ideas?

[Swing]

Well there are Chinese versions of such a test bench online for 400$, but there must be something from Germany as well.

Edit: Here is an example for Audi (but should be the same as Volkswagen I assume)
https://www.u-obd.com/product/audi-hybr ... -platform/

[jnsaff]

I have a project that I'd like to use this for but it seems that the availability of the motors has dried up. Anyone else experienced that?

I have a friend that has a car that I believe has this on. I will try to get it for a weekend and capture more can logs.

[transistorman]

I'm having trouble duplicating @Jack Bauer results from the start of this thread earlier, I've got savvycan at 500kbaud with a terminating 120ohm resistor across can-h can-l, 12v and gnd feeding the logic and +48v to the battery terminals, @Jack Bauer could you describe your setup more? Thanks.