Anyone want to sell me a car? What price?

[ABinBelgium]

Hi all,
I'm a bit in awe at the tech wizardry on display here. I can barely change a tyre. That's why I am wondering if anyone wants to build and sell me a converted car?

Initial specs:
estate-type car ideally (to carry a family of four plus dog)
Left hand drive
range: 60km OR 200km - the idea here is either a car that can do the school run/ groceries and generally handle the day to day driving. Or, a 200km range so we can also do weekend trips.
Don't need massive high speed charging as this isn't a car for road trips and it will mostly be charged overnight.
V2G capability would be cool if that one day becomes an option to run our home (or sell juice back to the grid) but it is hardly necessary right now.
I live in Belgium where I cannot homologate a converted car (unless something has changed since summer 2019 when I last checked). So I would need whoever makes the car to homologate it in their country and then sell it to me as a finished product.
Timeline is by the end of 2021 at the latest. At that point I will no longer be able to drive my old diesel Renault into Brussels due to the incoming low emissions zone (that's a good thing - the air is terrible!) so I need the replacement wheels by then.

What do people think? What additional information do you need that I haven't thought of? Also curious what people think a fair price would be? Obviously I want to spend as little as possible because I am not rich but I also strongly believe in people being fairly paid for their work so I don't want to argue over every last euro trying to get the 'best' bargain.

If this isn't possible I will likely buy a used 24kW Leaf but I love the idea of upcycling older cars and keeping them on the road. Hopefully someone on here is up for the challenge!

Thanks!
Adrian

[ABinBelgium]

I should add I don't mind where in Europe The car is made. Anywhere in western Europe is reasonably easy to get to and we can always put it on a truck and transport it if someone is really far away.
Also, I don't need anyone to agree to do it right away. Would be interesting just to have a discussion on possible parameters and do on for now.
Finally, Saw a tweet there from Kevin about 200 miles range and fast charging. That could also be an option depending on the extra cost as it would mean we could take the car on summer holidays to boot. Of course, it all depends on the cost. Thanks again!

[MattsAwesomeStuff]

Long answer short...

I can't imagine that any amount anyone would charge to build you a car, is a price that you'd say yes to. I suspect you don't have an idea of the work involved.

Especially compared to just buying a used EV.

So, to cut to the chase, give a budget of what you're hoping to spend. If it's in the right ballpark, maybe some suggestions can be made.

I suspect most people have a price in their head that is something like 20% of what a conversion would actually cost to pay someone to do.

[ABinBelgium]

Oh, I absolutely don't have a clue about the work involved - I tried to make that clear in the beginning. I am going off this tweet from Kevin Sharpe:

https://twitter.com/KevinSharpe59/statu ... 2920158208
Lexus and Prius late this year in eastern Europe... ~200 mile EV with 250kW rapid charging for ~€7500 looks achievable

Now maybe he's overoptimistic - I really cannot judge. And I don't know if the cost of the car is included in that figure.

But even if it is not doable I'd still love to spur a conversation on just what kind of prices we would be talking about now and what needs to happen to lower those prices.

My understanding (as little as it is) is that it is simpler to convert a mild hybrid Prius to full BEV than to convert a full ICE to BEV.

So if you buy a Prius for €5000 would it be possible to turn it into a 200km range BEV for another €7500 for a total of €12 500 and still have a reasonable margin? I'd love to know.

Newelectric.nl put have their rough cost guide online and a car that weight with a 200km range is priced at €25.000 – €35.000 - but that's all new motor and batteries (and doesn't include the car). The idea here is to use the existing motors and reconditioned batteries from elsewhere. But again, I don't know the breakdown between parts and labour so don't know how much of a price difference it would make.

What do you think?

[johu]

The key is labor cost. Since there is hardly any standard EV conversions out there, this easily works out to the highest figure.
Take my Touran: roughly 4000€ for one Leaf battery + 1000€ (in fact it was donated) drive train + 1000€ miscellaneous stuff. Hey 6000€, great! Yes plus about 400 working hours that I spent on the actual car or in front of my computer searching for parts. At a lowish 50€ per hour that is 20.000€.

Maybe others are quicker, who has spent less then 400 hours on their conversion?

So cheap car conversion - TODAY - is only possible if you do it yourself and enjoy it so much, that you can't count the time spent as "work".

We will see how the hybrid to full electric conversion goes, maybe that changes the game. But until then you're better of looking for a used EV.

[Bigpie]

I think the only way you're going to get a converted EV at any price close to competitive to a used leaf is if someone is selling their conversion to fund another project, even then, if you're not a tinkering sort, maybe you'd be better off with a commercial EV.

[Kevin Sharpe]

What do you think?

Most people on this forum are approaching this 'old school' and are interested in converting small numbers of vehicles. I'm interested in mass conversions starting with the ~10 million Lexus/Prius hybrids. Project LEXI (here) will demonstrate the practicality of this approach and this will take off en masse in Eastern Europe and Africa. Lots news to share at Fully Charged Live in May (here)

[Kevin Sharpe]

This is the future of low cost EV's

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=96&start=60#p6373

[celeron55]

I think the starting point of something like this is that you still need someone knowledgeable from, in this case, Belgium to know the legal limitations for the conversion prior to even selecting any components for it and to finally register the converted vehicle, and carry out any required paperwork and tests with the locals.

For example if you end up having to pay thousands for an EMC test that you wouldn't have had to do in another country, and even worse then fail to pass it, that would be disastrous for such a project.

[Kevin Sharpe]

For example if you end up having to pay thousands for an EMC test that you wouldn't have had to do in another country, and even worse then fail to pass it, that would be disastrous for such a project.

We expect fully tested solutions to be available at low cost now that we have low cost parts available. Look at the LEXI project and imagine what happens when every hybrid becomes a conversion candidate.

[celeron55]

For example if you end up having to pay thousands for an EMC test that you wouldn't have had to do in another country, and even worse then fail to pass it, that would be disastrous for such a project.

We expect fully tested solutions to be available at low cost now that we have low cost parts available. Look at the LEXI project and imagine what happens when every hybrid becomes a conversion candidate.

That is possible of course. It depends also on how the authorities look at it. Getting them to view EV conversions positively is a good project for any non-technical people who would like to help.

For example we had an open source project "eCorolla" in Finland many many years back that wanted to design a conversion kit for a very common model of car and as I understand it, they were denied the possibility to have approval for their kit and were told every vehicle registered after 2004 would have to be EMC tested individually.

That kind of attitude has to change and countries have to cut some slack in this EU type approval nonsense, or testing has to become much cheaper. Otherwise we're stuck with these vintage conversions that don't really cut it in terms of safety for example, or spare part availability.

[Kevin Sharpe]

That is possible of course. It depends also on how the authorities look at it. Getting them to view EV conversions positively is a good project for any non-technical people who would like to help.

In the UK a bill to treat conversions the same as OEM EV's (including financial incentives) is going through parliament (here). This is getting easier everyday as more people wake up to the potential of up cycling

[Zapatero]

The key is labor cost. Since there is hardly any standard EV conversions out there, this easily works out to the highest figure.
Take my Touran: roughly 4000€ for one Leaf battery + 1000€ (in fact it was donated) drive train + 1000€ miscellaneous stuff. Hey 6000€, great! Yes plus about 400 working hours that I spent on the actual car or in front of my computer searching for parts. At a lowish 50€ per hour that is 20.000€.

Maybe others are quicker, who has spent less then 400 hours on their conversion?

So cheap car conversion - TODAY - is only possible if you do it yourself and enjoy it so much, that you can't count the time spent as "work".

We will see how the hybrid to full electric conversion goes, maybe that changes the game. But until then you're better of looking for a used EV.

230 hours so far in my project

[ABinBelgium]

That is possible of course. It depends also on how the authorities look at it. Getting them to view EV conversions positively is a good project for any non-technical people who would like to help.

In the UK a bill to treat conversions the same as OEM EV's (including financial incentives) is going through parliament (here). This is getting easier everyday as more people wake up to the potential of up cycling

Whilst I know nothing about the technicals of conversion I do have some knowledge of EU regulations and they are currently lacking. Between Eurelectric and AVERE their should be enough clout here in Brussels to try and get some harmonisation of the standards of these conversions into the EU Commission's proposal on smart mobility (or at least into the Circular Economy proposal due next month). I spoke with AVERE (https://www.avere.org) last year about this question but they really didn't seem to know anything about it - it's not on their radar. I'll follow up with them and see if it is something that can be included in their proposals for the upcoming consultations.
To be clear though, I assume they will need some help on what those technical standards should be! So any thoughts about what is important from a safety certification point of view would be helpful.
What I did manage to learn last year is that if the car is certified roadworthy in say, the Netherlands or Ireland, I can get it on the road in Belgium even though Belgium itself lacks any sort of process or standards around approving conversions. But I couldn't clarify what would happen after that. For example, right now I have a 2008 Clio - so it needs to be tested for roadworthiness every year which is fair enough. If it were converted to electric in Germany and certified, brought back to Belgium, would it still have to be tested every year? And what testing protocol would they use? I haven't even begun to look into insurance in Belgium for a conversion but I am assuming it will be an absolute pain.

[ABinBelgium]

I think the only way you're going to get a converted EV at any price close to competitive to a used leaf is if someone is selling their conversion to fund another project, even then, if you're not a tinkering sort, maybe you'd be better off with a commercial EV.

I'd say you're right - but I am curious and this conversation is already teaching me a lot. I appreciate everyone's thoughts on this.

[ABinBelgium]

What do you think?

Most people on this forum are approaching this 'old school' and are interested in converting small numbers of vehicles. I'm interested in mass conversions starting with the ~10 million Lexus/Prius hybrids. Project LEXI (here) will demonstrate the practicality of this approach and this will take off en masse in Eastern Europe and Africa. Lots news to share at Fully Charged Live in May (here)

Looks like a great project! I'll be following with interest. Good luck!

[celeron55]

Whilst I know nothing about the technicals of conversion I do have some knowledge of EU regulations and they are currently lacking. Between Eurelectric and AVERE their should be enough clout here in Brussels to try and get some harmonisation of the standards of these conversions into the EU Commission's proposal on smart mobility (or at least into the Circular Economy proposal due next month). I spoke with AVERE (https://www.avere.org) last year about this question but they really didn't seem to know anything about it - it's not on their radar. I'll follow up with them and see if it is something that can be included in their proposals for the upcoming consultations.
To be clear though, I assume they will need some help on what those technical standards should be! So any thoughts about what is important from a safety certification point of view would be helpful.

Thought #1 (or more like book #1):

I think one important concept to get them to consider is that a conversion could be made from already EMC tested parts, and as long as all the important high power electronics parts are installed and wired according to the part manufacturers' instructions, the vehicle would be exempt from expensive EMC tests to get the conversion on the road.

It could be so that you get an inverter kit that's already EMC tested and that specifies what kind of wiring to run to the battery and to the motor, and connect it to a motor from a commercial EV, which counts as EMC tested, and you're good to go. Same thing for e.g. an air conditioning compressor or heating element, anything that handles a kW or more maybe, as anything below that is regular car modification and not subject to anything special.

As a special case, using components from commercial EVs and using similar HV wiring as they originally did should also give you the exemption, even while there are no manufacturer's instructions.

Noteworthily, as an AC charger is only in use when the vehicle is plugged in and stationary, in Finland it is more subject to the same rules as a fridge than a vehicle. That probably applies to other EU states also.


Thought #2:

From an electrical safety point of view, I think what I was required to do for my conversion made sense.

I had to make sure to follow the applicable portions of ECE/TRANS/WP.29/2010/52. Basically whatever can be reasonably applied from it. I decided these were most important:
5.1.1 Protection against direct contact
5.1.1.3 Connectors
5.1.1.5. Marking
5.1.2. Protection against indirect contact
5.2. Rechargeable energy storage system (RESS)
5.3. Functional safety

I had to write documentation of all changes including listing all new parts, including electrical diagrams of the added high voltage system, a description of the battery management system, a guide on how to operate the modified vehicle compared to its original state and a safe procedure for work being done on this specific HV system. I also described the materials and manufacturing methods used for the motor mount and the battery frame. I included the datasheets of major components like HV cables and battery cells. Then there was some stuff like comparison of whether the new power steering pump's output matches the requirements of the original power steering rack, but that's getting again to the regular car modification territory (however, see thought #3).

I had to draw up an inspection report that is signed by a licensed electrician. I used a template that was meant for signing off the work of fixing electrical equipment, because it contained a good set of fields (in the end this report indeed was fine to the authorities), which were:
- Identifying information of the equipment (1992 Toyota Previa)
- Voltages and powers used in the equipment (260VDC/230VAC, 81kW/3.3kW)
- Inspections done as part of the report (labeling, test drive and charging according to ECE/TRANS/WP.29/2010/52)
- Visual inspection pass/fail: insulation, enclosures, electrical inlet, protective earth, labeling
- Measurement results: protective earth continuity, insulation resistance (HV system kOhm/V measured according to ECE/TRANS/WP.29/2010/52), a check that there is fault current protection in the charging cable
- Instruments used for measurements (a Fluke 21 multimeter was used in this case (sounds more professional than it is, lol))
- Electrician sign off

It wasn't easy to find a licensed electrician willing to sign off a report on something like this. EU regulation for this might help in that. I also had to basically define myself what the report should contain.

And of course, everything the car originally had had to work. Heating, ABS, power steering, speedometer. If it were newer than 1998, the car's immobilizer would have to work.


Thought #3:

In Finland, vehicles after 2002 are subject to very strict type approval rules that are imposed by the EU. This means that you can only use type approved parts for them. You have to go through ridiculous hoops if you don't, and nobody wants to help you. Most expensively for an EV conversion you have to test your car's EMC compliance, costing thousands of euros. In some EU states like I think Denmark that's currently required for older vehicles also.

But the type approval requirement also applies to EV conversion necessities like power steering component replacements. The fact of the matter is you can't find a type approved part for replacing the original power steering pump with an electric one, or a type approved part for replacing the original brake booster vacuum source. This leads you to having to get some kind of authorized expert opinion on each of them with lots of paperwork (I don't know, I haven't tried, it doesn't seem worth trying. My local inspector said I shouldn't try.), and most vehicle inspectors don't have those authorizations. They can only authorize them for old pre type approval vehicles.

I would propose that, by EU regulations, those type approved components in an EV conversion that have to be replaced for the vehicle to continue functioning as it originally did should be considered special cases with no type approval requirement, in those cases dropping back to basic requirements about vehicle modification or maybe just allow switching to a component that is type approved for some other vehicle that is of the same vehicle class.

I don't know if that makes any sense. It's been bothering me ever since I made the conversion.


Thought #4:

Maybe then if there are EU regulations for conversions, the regulations could also recommend applying the same financial incentives to conversions that an EU member state applies to new cars.

[Jack Bauer]

One of our plans for this year is to EMC test a GS450H gearbox,inverter combo.

[ABinBelgium]

That's massively helpful Celeron55 - thank you.

Is there any consensus as to which EU country deals with this very well and should be emulated?

[celeron55]

Maybe Ireland? Damien seems to be able to register anything with ease.

[Igor]

Some good discussion and info in here. Seems like it deserves another place in the forum instead of being buried in classifieds.

[ABinBelgium]

Is there a way to.move a thread?

[Kevin Sharpe]

Some good discussion and info in here. Seems like it deserves another place in the forum instead of being buried in classifieds.

Is there a way to.move a thread?

Thread moved to "General"

[Kevin Sharpe]

Maybe Ireland? Damien seems to be able to register anything with ease.

We have a well established procedure in both Ireland and The Netherlands which is why it appears 'easy'

[celeron55]

Maybe Ireland? Damien seems to be able to register anything with ease.

We have a well established procedure in both Ireland and The Netherlands which is why it appears 'easy'

Could you elaborate on the procedure? Is it something anyone can do in Ireland and The Netherlands?