[WIP] Mini build with Outlander gear and BMW battery

[TNM]

Hello guys,
need some help with strategic decisions and if I got everything right…
I am a mechanical engineer with experience in batteries and OEM components (integration), but software is more the problem.
I have been reading here for a while and decided, that I need to take the next step
I got a Rover Mini from 86´, which I want to rebuild as an electric car.

What is the best method to control following parts? Plan was to use the Zombie VCU, but whats with the rest?

Motor: Outlander RDU with rear inverter
Needs to be mounted upside-down, or in reverse spinning direction. I would prefer the reverse direction, to have proper oiling and venting, as I understood that, the venting holes would be covered in oil in the upside down position. Is there a limit to current etc.? So far, I understood that there is none, but no confirmed answers…

OBC/ DCDC: Outlander
DCDC should be straight forward, but I was wondering, if the voltage of the OBC is fully adjustable and what the limit is? The Wiki doesn´t state a max voltage, I think I read somewhere in the Wiki, that the OBC is capable of up to 420 V? Plan is to use a 96S config for battery (VW/BMW PHEV) limited to 396 V or so, as the rest of the components shuts down at roughly 398 V.

Battery: VW Hybrid pack or BMW
Battery wise the VW hybrids are preferred by me, as they have a cooling plate and are available as 12 kWh packs more easily in Germany. Also I want to have the cooling plates, as the battery should be mounted in the area of the rear seats, to have a free boot for daily use.

I know Damien just used a 10 mm Aluminium plate, but as our summers are getting pretty hot at the moment with over 40°C and the battery being in the cabin, which might heat up even further, the pack might be soaked at 50°C or more… Also I want to build in a water heater for the cold months, to precondition the battery and perhaps the interior, when connected to a charger. The water heater would run over the plug of the inverter (fused with 30 amps), is it possible to activate this port whilst charging, without the rest of the inverter? Or is it better to leave it for the AC compressor and make a connection within the battery box for the heater? AC is not planned at the moment, so I would be happy to use that port…

As I will be rebuilding the battery box anyway, I might start with a swappable mounting plate for the modules, to add the cooling/ heating later on (for BMW pack).

In Germany you need isolation monitoring, the VW packs have one; do the BMW´s have one as well? Or is it done outside of the pack?

BMS wise I would go with the SimpBMS and the ZombieVerter as a VCU, or is it possible to run the Simp code on the Zombie? Keep in mind that max voltage needs to be set, as both variants of the packs have 96S instead of the 84S. If possible, I would try to not run any Arduinos and Teensys, as I like to use automotive rated equipment.

Last but not least, is there a proper model of the mini front frame available as CAD or scan? I looked for some models, but couldn´t find a proper one. Scanning is not possible atm, as I want to drive the car for the rest of the season as a cv…

I hope that I can help and clear some of my problems and questions for other people, to perhaps even build a guide out of my experience.

Thanks a lot!

[TNM]

Small project update:

Plans changed a bit, as the engine was more shot than I thought...
Pulled the engine after redoing the wire harnes and disassembled it. Engine is rebuildable, but not worth it in my opinion, as I would need a Oldtimer licensplate here in Germany to run it in bigger cities, but due to the fact that paint is not in a good condition and a missing interior, I don´t see the work to be put in there atm. Also registering it as an Ev gives me some more freedoms like LED headlights etc.

Arrival picture:

We all know the rule: never buy a rust bucket...
Pics look way worse than it is, mainly surface rust. Subframes will be pulled anyway, to be painted properly and to rebuild all bushings and brakes.

So whats the plan?
After a little more research I decided to go with the BMW 12 kWh pack, mounted to a 10mm Aluminium plate. The casing is designed to adapt to a cooling plate later on, if needed.

Rest of the build is going to be Outlander parts with a Zombieverter VCU. Motor, Inverter and OBC/DCDC are all going to be mounted in the engine bay, to have a proper weight distribution, as the battery will be on the rear seats.

So I startet to do some CAD work after scanning the rear seats with my phone:

Scan is kind of useable, but mounting points are not visible in the raw scan and quality/ accuracy is horrible...
To desgin the mounting points I did some oldschool CAD with some templates I made in the car. I hope it will fit properly, as the seating frame is not the straightest piece in the car

Rough placement of the components:

New frame for the battery on the rear seats. Will be attached at the lower harness mounting points:

Frame with the battery box:

On the empty spot the BMW S-box and an isolation monitoring device (needed in Germany) will be placed. Vent and HV/ LV connections will be on the right side.
If my TÜV guy wants another mounting point I can use the upper points of the harness attachements.

Does somebody have a scan of the BMW Modules and S-Box, or at least the dimensions of the S-Box? I would appreciate that information

Next steps are going to be the desging of the front frame to mount Motor, Inverter and OBC/ DCDC.
Scanned the front as well, but accuracy is a catastrophy

[arber333]

....
What is the best method to control following parts? Plan was to use the Zombie VCU, but whats with the rest?
...

I use original VCU from aot93 in Mazda and i intend to use the same for Megane. It works reasonably well, but i intend to upgrade it with my ESP32 VCU to fully utilize Outlander CAN system... any day now.
viewtopic.php?t=2167&hilit=Outlander+VCU

Motor: Outlander RDU with rear inverter
Needs to be mounted upside-down, or in reverse spinning direction. I would prefer the reverse direction, to have proper oiling and venting, as I understood that, the venting holes would be covered in oil in the upside down position. Is there a limit to current etc.? So far, I understood that there is none, but no confirmed answers…

I ran Outlander in my Mazda MX-3 for a year and 20Kkm now and there seems to be no problems with power, overheating or lubrication due to invese location. https://mazdamx3ev.wordpress.com/2023/1 ... tallation/
https://mazdamx3ev.wordpress.com/2023/1 ... lation-ii/
Not to misunderstand, i didnt rotate the motor on its head! Rather i run it in reverse with connector protrusion oriented to the front and downward. To confirm my theory I separated motor and gearbox and it looks like there is a vent hole on top of the gearbox where a lot of oil went after i had the motor upside down... There is no problem running motor in reverse at full speed. I tried 180km/h with 15in rims.

OBC/ DCDC: Outlander
DCDC should be straight forward, but I was wondering, if the voltage of the OBC is fully adjustable and what the limit is? The Wiki doesn´t state a max voltage, I think I read somewhere in the Wiki, that the OBC is capable of up to 420 V? Plan is to use a 96S config for battery (VW/BMW PHEV) limited to 396 V or so, as the rest of the components shuts down at roughly 398 V.

DCDC works with 14.4V output straight. It has a sense line and it is a good practice to keep that line clean as DCDC can jump upš to 15V if you introduce some resistance in that line.
I would say max voltage for me went up to 392Vdc where DCDC stopped. I think charger went up to 396Vdc.
Inverter i rather didnt try and kept it below 390Vdc.
See here viewtopic.php?t=4307 is the control loop for everything Outlander

[Tomas]

@TNM have you checked out Optoinnovation buildseries on Youtube? They used Outlander motor/inverter/charger and BMW hybrid batteries

[tom91]

@TNM have you checked out Optoinnovation buildseries on Youtube? They used Outlander motor/inverter/charger and BMW hybrid batteries

I built that system (Electronics and Software for them). Works well and I do sell the controller as used there.

For the Zombie route at the moment (keep in mind development is ever ongoing):
-BMS (SimpBMS derivative will do), Zombie will never take over BMS tasks due to requirement in the way the software is setup (CAN limitations)
-Utilize the Proximity sensing circuitry for going into charge mode or a more sophisticated charge port controller

[TNM]

@Thomas: They came up with their system when I thought about building all that stuff. But I am not quite happy with the mechanical design they did, not to hate on that, but as an engineer I think some things could have been done a little different....

@tom91 I know that you build that system, but wasn´t aware of Citini being your company. My main concern is the controlling of the systems, mechanical side should be no proplem. Had a lot to do with EV´s and Hydrogen cars, so I am well aware of the control mechanisms but not how it´s coded....

So do I get it right, that all controlls of Outlander Stuff and BMW pack can be done with the VCU? I really don´t like the idea of having any teensys and so on in a car, as I have seen what could happen in a car, due to shok tests and so on in the automotive world.
Your VCU manual states that it is not possible to "Controlling HV cabin HVAC" does that mean I can´t control the Outlander waterheater? This would be needed and later on I would like to implement a feature to heat up the car whilst hanging on the charger to not loose too much range in winter due to the small batterie....

Thanks a lot!

[tom91]

Your VCU manual states that it is not possible to "Controlling HV cabin HVAC"

Go for Zombie then.

You would like the implement a feature, but you do not code?

[tom91]

don´t like the idea of having any teensys and so on in a car

Okay, yet you are okay with the Zombie? What are the reasons?

[arber333]

Teensy is flimsy

However if you take robust precautions like protect inputs by transistor buffer or analogs by zeners and also protect power supply from reverse polarity it can be surprisingly good system.

I would like to have a second core of ESP32 running watchdog but i am not there yet...

[tom91]

Teensy is flimsy

Why do people keep saying this nonsense.. ofcourse when you approach it from a crude hobbyiest point of view yet. Any piece of electronics is fragile.

Properly designed hardware lasts.

I have had over 240 teensies in my hands, I only killed about 2 and my customers around 10. Most were snapping off the usb ports.

[marcexec]

is also interesting. Note it's difficult to find as he calls it "eMini".

Regarding the battery, I always thought there should be space between the rails of the rear subframe for one if you redesign/raise the boot floor. No massive loss as the fuel tank is gone, spare wheel delete is a given and you'll have a smaller 12V battery in the front anyway.

[TNM]

I like to use automotive rated, or atleast desgigned for that usecase stuff, as I have been part of devlopments and testing and a lot of errors occured due to bad PCB integration, vibrations and emi problems, which could have been prevented and would have saved a lot of money...
Another point is that I want to have as less as possible connections between boards etc, because you have less error potential
So i wondered if it would be possible to have it on the VCU itself.

If you are stating that they are robust enough, then I am fine with that!

I just want to build a system that is as bulletproof, as possible, because if things fail because of a bad PCB etc. this is not helping to provide a good picture to the outside world about the stuff we are doing here and I want to prove people that this stuff we are doing here is worth the effort!

I am willing to code in some new features, but haven´t done it yet. I am willing to learn, thats why I am asking, if it´s possible!
I could not find a fitting PTC heatercore for the Mini´s system and the outlander heater is in my opinion the best idea with this setup, as it was desgined to plug in the outlander powerelectronis.

I will work through the manual of the VCU, to get a better understanding of it.

@marcexec
Thanks for the info on the build, havent found that one yet....

As far as I know you are not allowed/ it´s not easy in Germany to just cut parts of the bodywork out and have it legally with the TÜV....
Also I would like to have a bolt in version which is way easier to `do with the TÜV, as you are not allowed to stiffen the chassis, or do any major changes to it.
I decided to go for the backseats, as this provides a free trunk for daily use and some security whilst a crash. Also I am 1,94m so there is not much space behind me on the rearseats...

[arber333]

....Most were snapping off the usb ports.

Touche!

[arber333]

...I like to use automotive rated, or atleast desgigned for that usecase stuff,...

You could make your own VCU using ATMEGA16M1 chip... its automotive rated, has at least one CAN bus and is already used by ZEVA in their BMS controler.

[marcexec]

As far as I know you are not allowed/ it´s not easy in Germany to just cut parts of the bodywork out and have it legally with the TÜV....
Also I would like to have a bolt in version which is way easier to `do with the TÜV, as you are not allowed to stiffen the chassis, or do any major changes to it.
I decided to go for the backseats, as this provides a free trunk for daily use and some security whilst a crash. Also I am 1,94m so there is not much space behind me on the rearseats...

Einzelabnahme beim TÜV sollte gehen: https://polomagazin.de/forum/index.php? ... eradmulde/

I'm just a bit worried about the COG

I get it though, I'm 193cm and had bucket seats bolted directly to the crossmember and floor to clear the half cage. It was an aftermarket convertible.
Only kids or stick to short trips.
You might want to consider different throttle pedals as well, depending on the size of your "Latschen".

[TNM]

@arber333 Please slow it down, this is way out of scope right now

I would like to take a step back to the main topic...

@tom91 As I said, I am willing to use the teensy, atleast for the moment.

So to use the waterheater from the outlander, it needs to be implemented => willing to implement it!

To be honest the documentation is a little confusing for me atm....

The VCU is it´s own board with 2 Cans and a teensy is needed for the third CAN (BMS)?!

Do I get it right, that we need 3 canbuses, due to the fact that certain parts need their own because of fixed ID´s and CAN speeds...
What happens to the contactor controls? BMW Pack has its own BMS for monitoring and your VCU does the Control of the contactors?

CAN1: Outlander Parts

• Inverter

• OBC/ DCDC

• Heater => needs to be implemented

CAN2: BMW Hybrid pack
This is the new Master for the CMC´s

CAN3: Rest of the components

• Speedo/ Dials/ Display for HMI with can interface

• Isolation Monitoring => Bender ISO 165C

• Chargeport interlock and proximity sensing

@marcexec I don´t want to make the Einzelabnahme, because with a bolt in kit you can reproduce it way easier... Also the weight should be sitting in front of the rearaxle due to weight distribution. Front axle is lighter now with the Outlander motor etc. and rear axle is getting heavier, if mounted behind the axle => this is not a good idea in my opinion for the handling... Yes you can change to a different damper and spring, but if we start that way, this wil end in exploding costs^^
COG should be fine, as the current pack has a hight of 45cm and the original tank was sitting way higher. only two modules are sitting higher, most of the mass is quite low

[tom91]

To be honest the documentation is a little confusing for me atm....

The VCU is it´s own board with 2 Cans and a teensy is needed for the third CAN (BMS)?!

What VCU? What documentation? What Teensy?

Topic of CANbus networks and ZombieVerter
You need a BMS yes this can be on the same bus as the outlander components if using the SimpBMS protocol.

I do not know if your yet to be chosen Chargeport controller (if you want to use one for locking/led incator button) uses for CANbus ids

I do not know if the BMW Sbox ids cause conflicts with the SimpBMS CAN + Outlander CAN.

Isolation Monitoring => Bender ISO 165C, have a look if the Sbox does this, there is currently no logic in the Zombie for reading this data or doing anyting with this. Same is for the Bender.

Speedo/ Dials/ Display for HMI with can interface - Again no info on which ones you want to use so no I cannot say what bus they can be on.

Zombie can have upto 3 CAN busses, 3rd bus is a special reserved bus so best to discount that. You should be able to do almost everything on one bus for the EV, most people do unless there are issues.

[TNM]

No, I meant the EVS VCU, which is your product, or am I mixing sth up here?

It doesn´t need to be the Zombie, i just generally asked what vcu is the best for this project!

You stated that Zombie doesn´t take over BMS work, so I looked into EVS VCU.
All I reffered to was the EVS VCU, not Zombie!

So is there a picture of the systems topology, as I have the feeling that we are misunderstanding us here...
Or could you give me a statement which component is running on which canbus on your system?
The Teensy acts as the BMS Master in your Build?

Speedo/ Dials/ Display for HMI with can interface are not chosen yet, but as long as these are compatible with the canbus speeds, there shouldn´t be any problems to integrate it, or am I wrong here?

For the BMW Sbox:
It should have an isolation monitoring, but is it implemented with your stuff?
If I understand that correct, the Sbox is taking the measurement and the BMS Master is evaluating the measurements... But with your System we are removing the master and using the Teensy as a new one? So the evaluation needs to be done by the new Master...

Thats what I found online:

Isolation monitoring
The isolation monitoring determines whether the isolation resistance between active high-voltage components (e.g. high-voltage cables) and vehicle ground is above or below a required minimum value. If the isolation resistance falls below the minimum value, the danger exists that the vehicle parts will be energized with hazardous voltage. If a second, active high-voltage component is touched, there is danger of an electric shock. There is therefore fully automatic isolation monitoring for high-voltage systems.
The isolation monitoring is located in the safety box. The safety box sends the results to the battery management electronics control unit via local CAN2. The SME control unit evaluates the results of these measurements. The isolation monitoring is carried out by the safety box, while the high-voltage system is active, with a resistance measurement (indirect isolation monitoring). This monitoring is checked at regular intervals of approximately 5 seconds alternately between HV+ and HV- to the reference potential of the body ground. However, it is equally important to identify isolation faults from the high-voltage cables in the vehicle to the body ground. The cable shield is therefore connected to the body ground via the isolation-monitored high-voltage components. This means that isolation faults in the entire high-voltage vehicle electrical system can be identified. The evaluation takes place in the high-voltage battery unit.

https://www.bmw3g20.com/monitoring_functions-3312.html

Don´t want to be rude here, but the documentation is a little cryptical. Should be fine when you know the system, but from the outside it´s a little confusing, which led to our chaotic conversation....

[tom91]

I meant the EVS VCU

Coding is closed source. It does not work over CAN with the Sbox, it does not control any heating systems. You cannot modify the code or add features.

This is why I mentioned the ZombieVerter.

[tom91]

Don´t want to be rude here, but the documentation is a little cryptical.

Of my VCU, please tell me where. There is alot of documentation maybe you cannot find the right section.

[TNM]

Okay, then perhaps we should do it the other way around...

So how is your system working/ what do I need to implement it?
Which devices are needed to run the components: Outlander Stuff and BMW Hybrid pack and Chargeport.
Only your EVS VCU or anything additional?

Are you willed to integrate the outlander heating system with me? Longterm I would use your vcu in a lot of vehicles, so would be buying several of these....

[tom91]

Which devices are needed to run the components: Outlander Stuff and BMW Hybrid pack and Chargeport.

Let me break down it.

BMW Hybrid pack- Modules with slaves yes - over CAN
BMW S-BOX - Can and direct control. (No Isolation monitoring at this moment)

Outlander Rear motor and Inverter - CAN controlled
Charge Port - You need a Charge Port controller (I have also developed one) that works over CAN

Heating system - no pins left for this functionality on the VCU.

If you are serious about looking for a more improved VCU option with bespoke features feel free to reach out to me, that is a completely different proposal then you started with in this thread.

[TNM]

Thanks, that clarifys a lot of things. That´s all I wanted to know

The lacking amounts of free pins was the problem with the heater, that wasn´t clear to me

As I stated: TÜV wants to have Heating and Isolation monitoring, so these would be needed^^

I will reach out to you, when the project gets more serious! This is preplanning phase atm, but needed to know the available options to get a go with the TÜV ....

[haand]

is also interesting. Note it's difficult to find as he calls it "eMini".

Regarding the battery, I always thought there should be space between the rails of the rear subframe for one if you redesign/raise the boot floor. No massive loss as the fuel tank is gone, spare wheel delete is a given and you'll have a smaller 12V battery in the front anyway.

Hey, I’m here also if you want to discuss something. My project is soon coming to a close and there are a lot of learnings to share.

[marcexec]

Hey, I’m here also if you want to discuss something. My project is soon coming to a close and there are a lot of learnings to share.

Awesome, I look forward to the build thread!