HSG - Hyundai/Kia

[volski1]

"Hi folks"

I'm a mechanic and not so good in electronics. But I do have nimble fingers and hot air soldering iron So I've got a HGS from Kia Kona from 2019 (K191114021S) and I would like to use it for driving a trolley. It's a low cost project, so I'm trying to use used car parts. I can't find the controller that would operate a resolver. My question is: can I use any VCM/board to control Toyota Yaris inverter to run this PMS motor in low voltage (48-96 V)? Most probably I could find the answer on this forum, but the vocabulary is completely incomprehensible to me...
Another question: if I run this machine with Hall sensor, will I miss the low-speed high-torque?

Thanks in advance for any help!

[kiwifiat]

"Hi folks"

I'm a mechanic and not so good in electronics. But I do have nimble fingers and hot air soldering iron So I've got a HGS from Kia Kona from 2019 (K191114021S) and I would like to use it for driving a trolley. It's a low cost project, so I'm trying to use used car parts. I can't find the controller that would operate a resolver. My question is: can I use any VCM/board to control Toyota Yaris inverter to run this PMS motor in low voltage (48-96 V)? Most probably I could find the answer on this forum, but the vocabulary is completely incomprehensible to me...
Another question: if I run this machine with Hall sensor, will I miss the low-speed high-torque?

Thanks in advance for any help!

The best bet for the HSG is a Honda IMA inverter. It doesn't make sense to use a 50kW inverter to drive an 8kW motor although you certainly could. Openinverter can handle the resolver directly or you can use a Lebowski controller brain with a resolver interface. The HSG is an IPM (internal permanent magnet) motor so it will run best with a Field Orientated Controller. Oak Ridge National Labs in the USA have pushed that motor to 23kW, not bad for a 8kW rated motor! I have run the motor up to 14,000 rpm with a Lebowski controller at 190V with a Honda IMA power stage and field weakening. The motor is rated to 15,000 rpm. You do not need 190V, the motor runs fine on 18S lipo. Without field weakening the kv is ~ 32rpm/V and the motor will produce in excess of 40 Nm of torque.

[arber333]

The best bet for the HSG is a Honda IMA inverter. It doesn't make sense to use a 50kW inverter to drive an 8kW motor although you certainly could. Openinverter can handle the resolver directly or you can use a Lebowski controller brain with a resolver interface. The HSG is an IPM (internal permanent magnet) motor so it will run best with a Field Orientated Controller. Oak Ridge National Labs in the USA have pushed that motor to 23kW, not bad for a 8kW rated motor! I have run the motor up to 14,000 rpm with a Lebowski controller at 190V with a Honda IMA power stage and field weakening. The motor is rated to 15,000 rpm. You do not need 190V, the motor runs fine on 18S lipo. Without field weakening the kv is ~ 32rpm/V and the motor will produce in excess of 40 Nm of torque.

I just got one HSG motors AND Honda IMA inverter. I intend to make a small setup of about 52V or so to drive a DIY 3wheeler for my son.
I found resolver connector is really easy to get from ebay or aliexpress. 10P male connector on the motor requires sealed female connector wired.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/20-set-1-2-3-4 ... 3233166806
What i dont have is resolver pinout and eventual thermistor so i can make a connector and test the motor with my Volt inverter before i proceed to make a Lebowski brain for IMA. I seem to remember you discussed HSG resolver pins somewhere online.

tnx

Arber

[mjc506]

http://www.kniro.net/hybrid_starter_gen ... s-762.html is useful but has the wrong pinout, but http://www.kniro.net/resolver_sensor_sc ... s-768.html has the right resolver pinout for the HSG

[kiwifiat]

I just got one HSG motors AND Honda IMA inverter. I intend to make a small setup of about 52V or so to drive a DIY 3wheeler for my son.
I found resolver connector is really easy to get from ebay or aliexpress. 10P male connector on the motor requires sealed female connector wired.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/20-set-1-2-3-4 ... 3233166806
What i dont have is resolver pinout and eventual thermistor so i can make a connector and test the motor with my Volt inverter before i proceed to make a Lebowski brain for IMA. I seem to remember you discussed HSG resolver pins somewhere online.

tnx

Arber

Excitor coil is on pink/white. Feed back signals are on blue/yellow and black/red. I have almost finished my IMA/Lebowski board that includes resolver support for the HSG. Off to the pcb manufacturers shortly. I got plugs from Aliexpress but Autoclick in the UK have them too. I also tracked down the IMA main plug, digikey part number 670-2925-ND and pins 670-2268-1-ND

[marengo]

I'm going to get one to play with, sounds promising. Any advantage to get the newest model with the attached belt tensioner? not sure if people still use the grooved belt or switch to toothed belts or sprockets.

north american option for the connector? https://www.ebay.com/itm/ASSEMBLED-WATE ... 4924078611

[bexander]

What is the approx. weight of a KIA HSG?

[mjc506]

9.95kg without the tensioner or coolant.

[bexander]

9.95kg without the tensioner or coolant.

Thank you!

[marengo]

I like how small it is but I weighed it at 12 kg. As I wait for my OI kit, I've scouted the lebowski route. Kiwifiat, do you want to build two lebowskis for fun and profit?

[kiwifiat]

I've scouted the lebowski route. Kiwifiat, do you want to build two lebowskis for fun and profit?

I only have one remaining BobC board available and the required resolver to Hall converter for an IMA conversion. There are three guys in the US and one in the UK working on Lebowski/IMA conversions now and Arber333 is about to start one. The single board solution for the IMA inverter is a little way off. PM me for details.

If you search for 174655-2 on Aliexpress you can find the HSG resolver plugs pretty cheap. The main plug and pins for the IMA inverter are available from Digikey.

[arber333]

I only have one remaining BobC board available and the required resolver to Hall converter for an IMA conversion. There are three guys in the US and one in the UK working on Lebowski/IMA conversions now and Arber333 is about to start one. The single board solution for the IMA inverter is a little way off. PM me for details.

If you search for 174655-2 on Aliexpress you can find the HSG resolver plugs pretty cheap. The main plug and pins for the IMA inverter are available from Digikey.

True, those connectors are cheap and plentifull.
I am about to start work with HSG motor and Lebowski board. I will use Honda IMA inverter with brain chip in reset. My intention is to make a soldered-on board connected directly to driver pins, current sensor pins and 5V supply. Interface will be via my wire bundle and probably separate grommet. I like to use numbered cable connector. I will use Kiwifiat resolver to encoder board.
However there is the possibility to use Openinverter with SMD components and resolver interface directly onboard. Well see how this goes.
My setup is currently Volt inverter with Lebowski/Openinverter interface.
I will post here when i have more to add.

[arber333]

Excitor coil is on pink/white. Feed back signals are on blue/yellow and black/red. I have almost finished my IMA/Lebowski board that includes resolver support for the HSG. Off to the pcb manufacturers shortly. I got plugs from Aliexpress but Autoclick in the UK have them too. I also tracked down the IMA main plug, digikey part number 670-2925-ND and pins 670-2268-1-ND

Hm... would it be possible to modify your board to have pinout for the actual IMA driver board. Then what it would require would be pins going straight up soldered from driver pins/current sensor pins connecting with our lebowski board.
I see your application is prepared in the size of the brain board. Do you intend to unsolder the brain board and use your board on top of the drivers?
Then what it would be required is just +/-15V driver power supply and 5V supply for the sensors. I am leaning towards replacing the mainboard completely since it is only needs isolated power supply. And that could be achieved using regular 24V power supply from the main battery split onboard using zener diodes. That would give +15V to GND and -8V for the rest.

[kiwifiat]

Hm... would it be possible to modify your board to have pinout for the actual IMA driver board. Then what it would require would be pins going straight up soldered from driver pins/current sensor pins connecting with our lebowski board.

Coleasterling from DIY and ES who has been driving the Lebowski/HSG project forward supplied me with a dismantled IMA board, a couple of working IMA inverters and an HSG motor. In the first instance the original brain pcb has a six output fully isolated 16V supplys for the IGBT gate driver boards. Secondly It is has components on both sides and has what appears to be support circuitry for the gate drive boards on top and bottom. Lastly it is an absolute pain to remove from the IGBT gate drive boards below with quite delicate pins projecting up from the three IGBT's below. I entertained the same idea but in the end the pragmatic solution has been to design a board that will mount on short standoffs over the original pcb and have very short jumpers going to the gate drives, current sensors, and bus voltage feedback. I plan on utilizing the original IMA socket to make all connections to the outside world. I am not saying you can not do what you propose only that from my perspective the cost/benefit does not look good. In the case of the Ampera/Volt inverter it is plainly the best option to replace the entire original brain board since there is basically nothing other than the isolated bus voltage feedback that gets sacrificed.

[arber333]

I will hijack this thread since everything about HSG is already here.

I got one HSG motor and i prepared my Volt test inverter to drive it with 360Vdc. That is correct! I applied full pack voltage to motor that in OEM uses 120Vdc 240Vdc or so. I made cables from 6mm2 wire and i added large fastons on the ends. That makes for super easy connection.

My inverter of choice for first run is Lebowski since i already have the board made. The board is Volt Lebowski ver3 with sensorless interface.

However there is a twist . Since i will also be trying to run Outlander motor via BOTH power sections i decided to connect my HSG motor via the small power section meant to drive the Volt transmission Aux oil pump.

Lebowski makes this almost too easy and i was spinning the motor via settings for regular Prius AC compressor in no time. 9000rpm at 35000erpm, go figure... This means motor is 4 pole pairs! I measured phase resistance and got 460mohm so i divide this between phases and i get 230mohm for a single phase.

I tried FOC calibration and got some more results.
HSG settings
Current settings
Sensor transimpedance 40 mV/A current sensors
Max motor currents 20A Set 20A for start
Max batt currents 10A Set 10A for start
FOC impedance measurement
- Inductance 1500uH
- resistance 230mOhm

Next i will need to setup Openinverter with full resolver interface.

[marengo]

I was surprised to see each cable is just 6 strands of the motor winding wires crimped to a ring terminal. Does this limit the amps it can be force-fed?

[arber333]

Maybe 6mm2? That would mean some 60A to 100A current limit.
It will not be force fed. It just wont accept more amps once stator is saturated.
On start from 360v i see 8A that falls to 1A with steady acceleration about 5000erpm/s. I may try for main power connections since small power section is limited to about 25A max.
I dont have any load connected so it is not a good test.

[bexander]

I got one HSG motor and i prepared my Volt test inverter to drive it with 360Vdc. That is correct! I applied full pack voltage to motor that in OEM uses 120Vdc or so. I made cables from 6mm2 wire and i added large fastons on the ends. That makes for super easy connection.

This is very interesting!
Where have you found the information that it only is designed for 120Vdc? The battery in, at least the KIA Niro Hybrid is 64S or 270Vdc. Is there a step-down in between battery and HSG inverter?

[arber333]

This is very interesting!
Where have you found the information that it only is designed for 120Vdc? The battery in, at least the KIA Niro Hybrid is 64S or 270Vdc. Is there a step-down in between battery and HSG inverter?

Hm.. you got me. I dont know why i thought it was 120Vdc. I guess when i was testing Lacrosse motor its design voltage was stuck with me.
You are correct, Hyundai Ioniq mild hybrid HSG has nominal system voltage of 240Vdc 64S with battery up to 1.5kWh.
So i dont see any problem using it with 96S.

EDIT: strange, i see from ORNL report motor is 6pole. But speed achieved with Lebowski RPM limiter led me to believe motor has 8poles. I will have to confirm that with Openinverter.

[kiwifiat]

EDIT: strange, i see from ORNL report motor is 6pole. But speed achieved with Lebowski RPM limiter led me to believe motor has 8poles. I will have to confirm that with Openinverter.

The resolver gives it away, three lobes for a 3 pole pair motor. Each lobe represents 360 electrical degrees and in the ORNL report you can clearly see the six magnets in the rotor.

[marengo]

One of you must have posted the report on another thread, i don't know how else i could have landed upon it:)

https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files ... 2013_o.pdf

Although search engines might have taken me to the HSG go cart, which links to the above...
http://isopack.blogspot.com/2017/08/new-go-kart.html

[zilion]

I'm re-posting it here, to be in one place.

Resolver pole pairs = 3
Motor pole pairs = 3
Power max: 8,5 kW
Power const: 6,4 kW
Speed: 15750 RPM
Momentum: 42 Nm at 125 A
Resolver connector: Denso 10P https://www.aliexpress.com/af/10-pin-de ... ector.html

[Leo M]

Привет! По моему запустить этот двигатель вообще не проблема... думаю легко инвертором Тойота Приус3 или с любым другим от openinverter)))

[Dylan Witt]

so im using one of these as a generator for my electric mazda rx8 project. im only needing 80 amps and 265 volts

[Bratitude]

so im using one of these as a generator for my electric mazda rx8 project. im only needing 80 amps and 265 volts

What are you going to drive it with?

I’ve been looking for a sprocket that would fit onto the shaft, no luck so far as it’s 22mm diameter shaft with a 4mm width woodruff notch. the standard for a 22mm shaft is a 6mm width notch.