Please don't stone me ;-) CCS to Type 2 AC Adapter/Converter?

[DVD3500]

HI All,
I haven't really introduced myself or my project but I have been trawling through threads and using the search. I must admit this is one of the kindest, interesting and dare a I say geekiest forums I have ever seen!

I am what Germans would call "tiefbegabt" when it comes comes to complicated electronics. I am technically a French teacher by trade but have mostly worked in the software industry as an operations manager. But I can't program! There were always much more talented people than me for that !

In any case, my project is a Triumph Spitfire. I owned one as a teenager and I know its mechanicals inside and out. It is also an easy conversion as there is no power steering or brakes. Easy access hood/bonnet area...
It is small and light which brings me to the question below...

Someone has already done a conversion 10 km from me and I saw the thread about the Tesla powered one in the Netherlands.

I live in Germany (but am not German) so I will have to go through the lovely TÜV.
Because of my lack electronic abilities I plan on handing over the main conversion to a company that does such conversions.

They other reason is because the car has been off the road since the 90's and I have to go through a more complicated registration process. I will also be upgrading mechanical parts that will require "Einzelabnahmen" i.e. special certification (lighter, stronger suspension parts etc.)
This company can help me out on all fronts.

Because of the very small size of the car we likely won't be able to fit CCS directly. Besides, they prefer a low volt (100V) system for the batteries and motor. They only put in brand new components (usually) for guarantee reasons.

11 KW or even 22 KW AC (Type 2) is no problem but they are shy about adding CCS. Mostly because of the added complexity but also the added weight.

The guy near me has 22 KW of batteries in his "Spiti" and I am hoping through use of lightweight components and battery tech improvements to maybe squeeze 30 KW in.

Most of the time the car will be charged at home but as I hope the kids will leave home soon I will want to do longer trips.
Finding AC Type 2 charging is not too terribly difficult but in my experience they often top out at 11 KW.

That would mean often driving for an hour and spending two hours charging.
I also have the feeling that Type 2 chargers are becoming rarer. It could just be a feeling though.

In any case, when I saw Johannes' CCS to Chademo (I know that is DC to DC) and I read about things like the Prius inverter and people pulling AC power our of CCS chargers I was wondering if there might be a way to make a CCS -> Type 2 22 KW for longer trips?

The car has a luggage rack for longer trips and I could strap it on there.

I am not too worried about any loss of efficiency. It is purely so that I have as many options and the fastest possible charging available for long trips.

There may be of course better options but I only understand maybe a tenth of what I am reading on GitHub.
My developer colleagues can only help me a little as most of them have no electrical or electronic experience.

Feel free to tell me I am an idiot (I am used to criticism from my teenage kids!)

There is no rush.
The car is laying in pieces in a workshop right now and won't come home for a few months and even then I will still have months (years?) of work as I build it back up by hand.
I know of other electrified cars around my area (Rhein Neckar Kreis) so if anyone wants to see some let me know!
I hope to attend the next 18-24 hour race at Hockenheim as well!
I can accept private messages in German or French as well as English.

Any and all feedback greatly appreciated!
Cheers and many thanks!
Andy

[m.art.y]

Most public AC chargers should be capable of providing 22kw of power, I propose to install an app like plugshare and double check what power most AC chargers are in Germany. If most of them are 22 kw then your problem is solved. I currently only have type2 myself and a 17 kw Tesla charger. I had a chance to do quite a few longer trips and lucky for me most of type2 chargers around are 22 kw. Charging at only 11 kw with a smaller battery like mine (~150km range) would make longer trips excruciatingly hard.
Now with 100v battery are you going with DC motor? Proper CCS or Chademo might not even be possible with 100v battery as those chargers have min HV voltage limit.
The adapter you are proposing would have to be 3 phase DC to AC transformer capable of 22 kw otherwise there would simply be no point, might be costly as well. Perhaps something like the solar guys are using but with CCS integration. That said you would be way better off using 22 kw AC chargers or having proper CCS or chademo (if possible).

[tom91]

Go for an HV setup, 300>V. Otherwise there is no point really, unless you get a DCDC converter which is heavy and needs to be liquid cooled to take the >200V and buck it down safely to the 100V.

also 100V means alot more current and thus heavier/costlier wiring and contactors.

[johu]

The "added weight of CCS" sounds like an excuse because they don't want to leave their comfort zone

With 100V forget any kind of DC fast charging and stick with fast-ish AC charging. The lower voltage limit is mostly 200V.

[DVD3500]

Thanks for all the responses.
One other reason they don't like doing CCS is also because they only install new items for guarantee and liability reasons and new CCS parts are expensive.

I forget the exact number and voltages of the batteries they use but I think getting it up to 200 volts or higher is also physical challenge as the Spitfire is a very narrow and low car.

My idea is to create an external box or suitcase that can be used to convert CCS DC to AC and plug it into the 22KW AC Type 2 the car will likely have. It would look more or less like what Johannes has done with CCS to Chademo but converting DC to AC and CCS to Type 2. I would only take the suitcase with me on long trips and likely strap it to luggage rack on the trunk/boot of the car. My guess is while inverters of course exist that can do high volt DC to AC, getting CCS to talk to it and getting it compact enough would be issues.

Going straight to DC is likely not an option for reasons mentioned above...

My Skoda Enyaq can only do 11 KW AC so I don't know how reliable the data on Plugshare etc is for 22 KW. There are quite a few but not nearly as many as CCS chargers. You would also lose time because most AC chargers are in towns and you would have to go several KM out of your way to find them. I also know at a museum recently when two cars charged at the same time the KW rate was halved.

[m.art.y]

How would you convert CCS to type2 without a transformer? Do you have some ideas? Because that's in no way similar to CCS to Chademo adapter where it's only a matter of getting communication protocols to work as they are both DC power. With CCS to Type2 you not only need the comms to work but also need to transform the DC power into AC for your onboard AC charger. That's not that simple of a task.
It seems a bit like that your conversion using new components will be very expensive but also limited. You would be way better off with AC motor and higer battery voltage and proper CCS. It is a small car but I'm pretty sure it has been converted using AC motor before. You can get battery packs from hybrids that have full voltage and are pretty compact.

[DVD3500]

Nope.
I haven't got a clue... so if it is a non-starter because the power conversion is too complicated I will just have to plan more time each trip.

[arber333]

Nope.
I haven't got a clue... so if it is a non-starter because the power conversion is too complicated I will just have to plan more time each trip.

Well... i think solution is at hand for a long time now:
https://www.easun-energy.com/collection ... 2mEALw_wcB

Simply make CCS as PV input into inverter(s) with or without energy storage and then prepare AC charging station for Cp protocol. Should work either on 230Vac singlephase or 400Vac trephase.

[tom91]

Here is a mini: https://www.fellten.com/mini/ even smaller and is 350V nominal.

Even the small 3 wheeler morgan is equiped with a +30kWh pack https://morgan-motor.com/news-xp-1/

[m.art.y]

Or convince the conversion company to use your own second hand components and go with AC system and higher battery voltage. Then they will only be liable for their work and not their components. If a component fails simply replace it at your own cost.

[DVD3500]

Well... i think solution is at hand for a long time now:
https://www.easun-energy.com/collection ... 2mEALw_wcB

Simply make CCS as PV input into inverter(s) with or without energy storage and then prepare AC charging station for Cp protocol. Should work either on 230Vac singlephase or 400Vac trephase.

Interesting... I don't understand a lot of the figures though..

But don't I have to tickle the CCS to give up the juice?
From what I can tell from the Chademo project the CCS requires a lot of communication to let charging start....

[f0ld]

Or convince the conversion company to use your own second hand components and go with AC system and higher battery voltage. Then they will only be liable for their work and not their components. If a component fails simply replace it at your own cost.

As someone who grew up in the Frankfurt Region I know exactly which company OP is talking about. They are quite known around this area for doing conversions that have 100% TÜV conformity (they partner with a specific inspector and have their "certified" system) and are relativly low cost (because they started early and have developed their own "modular" system).

They dont have higher battery voltages because at the time they started developing this was more then feasible for oldtimer conversions. Also lower voltage "of the shelf" components are cheaper.

They are quit strict regarding their systems. Especially if you want them to get TÜV for you. And propably they fear the development costs it would take them to make a battery and bms adaption for higher voltages. Also their motors would need some change...
So thats why (from what I heard) it is all or nothing with them. Either use their full system or build it on your own. For many oldtimer conversions this might work out well but I personally dont like this "closed" approach.


@DVD3500:
Since you mentioned that you will be restoring the car (and that the process will take a longer time anyways) it might be worth to first get the car base to a solid point and then research again if there are developments on companys (or similar projects like yours) that use more advanced tech...
Maybe even the company you currently intend to use will develop something in that time.
A year is a lot of time and I personally wouldnt close possibilitys too early.


Edit: From my perspective there are a lot of companys out there that offer consulting on selecting/designing a retrofit with modular systems that are a lot more advanced. Might cost a bit more money but I think thats worth it. And if you want it cheap, you always have to build it yourself

[DVD3500]

As someone who grew up in the Frankfurt Region I know exactly which company OP is talking about. They are quite known around this area for doing conversions that have 100% TÜV conformity (they partner with a specific inspector and have their "certified" system) and are relativly low cost (because they started early and have developed their own "modular" system).

They dont have higher battery voltages because at the time they started developing this was more then feasible for oldtimer conversions. Also lower voltage "of the shelf" components are cheaper.

They are quit strict regarding their systems. Especially if you want them to get TÜV for you. And propably they fear the development costs it would take them to make a battery and bms adaption for higher voltages. Also their motors would need some change...
So thats why (from what I heard) it is all or nothing with them. Either use their full system or build it on your own. For many oldtimer conversions this might work out well but I personally dont like this "closed" approach.


@DVD3500:
Since you mentioned that you will be restoring the car (and that the process will take a longer time anyways) it might be worth to first get the car base to a solid point and then research again if there are developments on companys (or similar projects like yours) that use more advanced tech...
Maybe even the company you currently intend to use will develop something in that time.
A year is a lot of time and I personally wouldnt close possibilitys too early.


Edit: From my perspective there are a lot of companys out there that offer consulting on selecting/designing a retrofit with modular systems that are a lot more advanced. Might cost a bit more money but I think thats worth it. And if you want it cheap, you always have to build it yourself

Yep... You probably guessed it.
I will always entertain other options until I sign the dotted line but the modifications we are doing on the car mean I need a "gentle" TÜV engineer.
Mostly replacing items with lightweight equivalents. Nothing too crazy.
One other reason I like them is they let you work o the car with them, which I plan to do....

Time is on my side though I think. The other Spitfire guy had the batteries jump in almost 10% capacity between November and March when he had his conversion done. Maybe I will get lucky.

I forgot one very important parameter of the project that is non-negotiable:
The finance minister aka my wife has to be able to use the car so fiddling with laptops and too many crazy settings or switches would mean I would lose my funding!

[DVD3500]

Just to let people know I have not stopped researching this topic.

Someone claimed there was a Tesla model a few years back that had AC charging only and that it had an onboard DC to AC charger converter that would allow DC charging without adapters... As with many claims on the internet I have not found anything to support this.
I am thinking that they are confusing the upgrade option that is offered from some older models to let them hook up to the European CCS standard...

The other thing is since batteries batteries are always DC why would any manufacturer do that?

A new motivation for me was the the success of ESDI EV in the latest 24 hour race at Hockenheim (which is my local track).
I would LOVE to race my Spitfire there as the Triumph Spitfire actually raced in the 24 hours of Le Mans in the '60s and it would be great highlighting how durable these conversions can be.

Since the ESDI EV entry was a conversion I now know that such conversions are allowed but the rules state very clearly that the cars must be charged using the standalone chargers they provide CCS @ roughly 19 KW (see the linked document here https://24ecompetition.com/reglement/ Point 9 Section "Laden")

So I am thinking there are really only two ways forward:
A: Get the system up to 200 volts or higher so it is HV compatible
or
B: Maybe get some sort of Buck converter that would drop the voltage to 100 volts for the system and make maybe some sort of customized DC charging system (maybe CHAdeMO based?)
or
C: Have an external transformer in the trunk/boot to plug into and simply do a conversion (again losing lots of power likely). I got the idea from this thread: viewtopic.php?f=17&t=4971 although I am going the other way...

Option A I see as being very tough unless the voltage of batteries with the current weight/volume doesn't change. There is very little space under the hood/bonnet (most electric motors are almost the same size as the original engine) and if I am reading the TÜV rules correctly you can't put anything that stores energy outside of the axles unless the original car had that as well (for crunch zone/crash protection). I saw a converted Spitfire in the Netherlands that uses Tesla power and batteries but his battery pack goes right up the front bumper and I think the German TÜV would have a problem with that.

Option B is something that I would consider for just such an event or for long trips as the power loss from the conversion (if I understand the physics correct) would be very high. The Spitfire has a very large trunk/boot that in most conversions is left out of the equation so it keeps its practicality but there is still space to maybe add the needed hardware.

It also has 30-40 cm wide "parcel shelf" behind the seats that could be used for additional hardware if having electronics behind the rear axle is a no-go. The guy who already converted his Spitfire actually has his Type 2 plug behind the driver's seat.

The same guy who converted his Spitfire did something similar: He only has one 3.7 KW AC charger on board all the time and he daisy chains 2 more into the system when he is on long trips to up the charging speed to 11 KW.

The C version might be difficult to get approval for and would definitely only be for such events. The rules are very clear that you must use "their" charger. I would have to try and get special permission in advance. I really can't see why they would not allow it though because we wouldn't have an advantage, in fact we would probably be at a disadvantage because of all the power losses.


Yes, this would all be VERY expensive I know, but the last option is something we could get away with if we got decent enough sponsors.

Anyway, feel free to tell me I am barking mad.

[johu]

Someone claimed there was a Tesla model a few years back that had AC charging only and that it had an onboard DC to AC charger converter that would allow DC charging without adapters

That indeed sounds like a complete myth to me

Another option would be to check experimentally if the chargers you intend to use accept DC input. After all they are just switch mode power supplies, so the first thing they do is rectifying the incoming AC voltage.

Uhi designed a box that runs the rapid chargers at a fixed 230V output voltage (using Foccci).

So if your OBC accepts DC, you just beef this box up to handle 22 kW and feed its output to the 3-phases of you 22 kW OBC.

[uhi22]

Yes, this would have been my recommendation, too. If experimentation is okay, let's just connect and see. From my experiments, I see 100% pass-rate when feeding 230V DC to devices which normally receive 230V AC:
- Laptop supply
- Phone charger
- Industrial 24V/20A supply
No smoke, just works fine.

[DVD3500]

OK cool.. I will take a look!