Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

[New Electric Ireland]

… The DVLA will believe a complete pack of lies if it is done by a 'professional' company.

Yup, that is my belief also.

It isn't difficult, you just have to understand and follow the rules. Same in Ireland, The Netherlands, and (I believe) Germany.

[eUKenGB]

Obviously it's good that Zero EV have successfully gone through the DVLA rights of passage on a Boxster conversion, so I'll keep that precedent up my sleeve.

The Zero EV solution is bolt in whereas you have cut the chassis. I suspect this is one of the reasons why DVLA want an automotive engineer to take a look.

I think if you speak to Tom at Zero EV, he'll confirm that cutting modifications to the chassis rails were made on their car, and welding onto OEM crossmembers.

I guess the question is, have DVLA been made aware of any chassis modifications? I rather get the impression this is just the DVLA being typically inconsistent and demanding an inspection despite not doing so in other cases, with no obvious technical reason why.

[eUKenGB]

… The DVLA will believe a complete pack of lies if it is done by a 'professional' company.

Yup, that is my belief also.

It isn't difficult, you just have to understand and follow the rules. Same in Ireland, The Netherlands, and (I believe) Germany.

I don't wish to be antagonistic, but your reply indicates a complete lack of experience dealing with the DVLA. They are inconsistent with how they apply the rules and in some cases simply misinterpret the regulations and so when they do apply the rules, they are doing it incorrectly.

I wish it was a simple case of just following the rules, but as a general rule, it is not.

[New Electric Ireland]

I guess the question is, have DVLA been made aware of any chassis modifications?

We know that many UK conversions have not notified DVLA regarding chassis modifications. That is one of the reasons why DVLA are now tightening up and I suspect you're headed for an inspection regime like much of Europe.

[New Electric Ireland]

I don't wish to be antagonistic, but your reply indicates a complete lack of experience dealing with the DVLA.

I'm from the UK and was involved in a company modifying vehicles. We had no problem with DVLA historically. The recent problems are because of the widespread abuse of the system in the last few years.

[eUKenGB]

I guess the question is, have DVLA been made aware of any chassis modifications?

We know that many UK conversions have not notified DVLA regarding chassis modifications. That is one of the reasons why DVLA are now tightening up and I suspect you're headed for an inspection regime like much of Europe.

Well I would counter that by asking if they have not been informed, how do they know about these chassis modifications and come to the belief this needs to be tightened up.

We have no evidence yet of any actual tightening up of the procedure, but if there is, I think it is more likely they are seeing more conversions being done and think they need to better control it.

The fact that one person is experiencing problems is more than likely just down DVLA's general inconsistency (which we know exists from experience). We would need to see a trend to conclude there is a general tightening up of the re-classification process.

I refute again your comment that "It isn't difficult, you just have to understand and follow the rules". That is simply not true and DVLA themselves clearly do not know how to do that.

[New Electric Ireland]

Well I would counter that by asking if they have not been informed, how do they know about these chassis modifications and come to the belief this needs to be tightened up.

Ever heard of YouTube? Not difficult to identify UK cars that clearly violate the DVLA points system. This one for example;

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=210

[New Electric Ireland]

I refute again your comment that "It isn't difficult, you just have to understand and follow the rules". That is simply not true and DVLA themselves clearly do not know how to do that.

And yet companies are able to get their conversions registered by following the rules;

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=543&start=75#p22102

[eUKenGB]

I don't wish to be antagonistic, but your reply indicates a complete lack of experience dealing with the DVLA.

I'm from the UK and was involved in a company modifying vehicles. We had no problem with DVLA historically. The recent problems are because of the widespread abuse of the system in the last few years.

I don't wish to argue any more about this as I'd rather we collectively argue with DVLA, but I would point out that we have established that a professional company dealing with the DVLA is entirely different from a private individual. The latter will need to obtain evidence about the conversion from the former who therefore can be expected to have a simpler time when performing such conversions themselves. This trend is not limited to vehicles and DVLA. The freedom of the individual is being eroded away by increasing legislation. I am apparently not allowed to perform some tasks that I spent some years teaching others to do. But I am no longer a 'professional company' and cannot be trusted to be capable of such work. This is no conspiracy theory as it is most clearly happening and it's not a direction I find acceptable.

But that aside, if it's all so simple, how can we get DVLA to correctly interpret the regulations and on request to change the Taxation Class of converted vehicles first manufactured between 2001 and 2017?

[New Electric Ireland]

This is no conspiracy theory as it is most clearly happening and it's not a direction I find acceptable.

We have no problem following the rules in Ireland which are much as you describe;

https://openinverter.org/wiki/Ireland

[eUKenGB]

Well I would counter that by asking if they have not been informed, how do they know about these chassis modifications and come to the belief this needs to be tightened up.

Ever heard of YouTube? Not difficult to identify UK cars that clearly violate the DVLA points system. This one for example;

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=210

You seem to be unnecessarily targeting BoxterEV in your 'attention' to this thread, why would that be? This is a forum where we can discuss how to convert vehicles and we don't need a mouthpiece for how wonderful is the DVLA who quite frankly are a blight to our vehicular developments and IMO should be disbanded and replaced with an actual data processing organisation that knows what it is doing, i.e. how to process data rather than their apparent belief in themselves as the arbiter of all things vehicular on our roads.

But let's cut to the chase here. What 'rules' have been broken and where are these 'rules' available to the general public? Not been my concern previously, but obviously I need to peruse them in great detail. So a link to them would be much appreciated.

[New Electric Ireland]

What 'rules' have been broken and where are these 'rules' available to the general public? Not been my concern previously, but obviously I need to peruse them in great detail. So a link to them would be much appreciated.

Start with the DVLA requirements for keeping the original registration number;

https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration ... d-vehicles

"Chassis, monocoque bodyshell (body and chassis as one unit) or frame - original or new and unmodified (direct from manufacturer)"

And ask yourself whether this breaks that requirement;

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=210&p=22091#p22088

"it's only the boot floor that has been cut to accommodate the battery box"

Then, equipped with that knowledge have a look on YouTube at some of the UK classic conversions. I'd recommend the Fully Charged channel to keep things simple;

https://www.youtube.com/user/fullychargedshow

And finally, ask yourself how Zero EV in the UK are able to register conversions on demand

[eUKenGB]

This is no conspiracy theory as it is most clearly happening and it's not a direction I find acceptable.

We have no problem following the rules in Ireland which are much as you describe;

https://openinverter.org/wiki/Ireland

With respect, what relevance does that have to dealing with DVLA?

Some applicants have been awarded the change in class promptly and without fuss while others have huge problems. So I repeat that the DVLA is very inconsistent on this matter. Apparently not with you. Lucky you. But you are a 'company'. In my (and most others') experience they are dreadful to deal with and you get a different answer every time you ask.

In any case, in the linked page, I see no 'rules of modification'. Just the steps you need to take - in Ireland.

[New Electric Ireland]

In any case, in the linked page, I see no 'rules of modification'. Just the steps you need to take - in Ireland.

Fiachra and Damien have both had conversions registered in Ireland as individuals. It's not hard if you follow the rules.

In the UK James and several other attendees from last years courses will have conversions registered this year. I suspect they will be a mix of individual and company applications so maybe consult with them when you're ready.

[eUKenGB]

What 'rules' have been broken and where are these 'rules' available to the general public? Not been my concern previously, but obviously I need to peruse them in great detail. So a link to them would be much appreciated.

Start with the DVLA requirements for keeping the original registration number;

https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration ... d-vehicles

"Chassis, monocoque bodyshell (body and chassis as one unit) or frame - original or new and unmodified (direct from manufacturer)"

And ask yourself whether this breaks that requirement;

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=210&p=22091#p22088

"it's only the boot floor that has been cut to accommodate the battery box"

Then, equipped with that knowledge have a look on YouTube at some of the UK classic conversions. I'd recommend the Fully Charged channel to keep things simple;

https://www.youtube.com/user/fullychargedshow

And finally, ask yourself how Zero EV in the UK are able to register conversions on demand

I like Fully Charged, but they know NOTHING about any of this. They are completely NON technical.

You Tube is not a valid source for legal information.

The government source you linked to is not about EV conversions. Where are the rules laid down and available for all to read, that govern the conversion of ICE powered vehicles to electric.

DVLA told me I just needed to provide proof of the conversion (receipts from the company performing the work - so not the individual again, but let's ignore that) and the relevant docs/forms and it would be done. They did NOT mention any form of inspection/test. Yet here we are discussing someone who is having extreme difficulty and far more is being demanded, like an inspection. What is consistent about that?

As you can tell, I HATE the DVLA. They're idiots who have no right to be doing what they do. Some years ago I wanted to register a Trials bike I had new some years before and not ridden. I telephoned them (we were allowed to then) and was told what I needed to provide. I sent it. They summarily sent it back saying they needed photographs. No problem with that, but WHY NOT ASK FOR THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE instead of wasting our time. I supplied everything they asked. Now they complained they couldn't verify the age of the vehicle. I pointed out I had supplied the 'Certificate of Newness' from Honda that unequivocally stated when it had been manufactured. They said that was not sufficient proof as it had now 'expired'. WTF!

First of all, why was this the first time I had heard them mention this problem and anyway how can a certificate like that expire. it is simply nonsense. There was no expiry date on the certificate and how can it expire. The bike was manufactured then, as certified by the actual manufacturer of said bike and that could not possibly change, EVER, no matter how old the certificate (or the bike).

I asked what proof they required and was told it could be dated by a 'Club' with experience of that bike. In other words, some numpty at a Club could verify the age of manufacture, yet the actual manufacturer could not.

You wonder why I have so little respect for the DVLA.

[eUKenGB]

In any case, in the linked page, I see no 'rules of modification'. Just the steps you need to take - in Ireland.

Fiachra and Damien have both had conversions registered in Ireland as individuals. It's not hard if you follow the rules.

I say again, what is the relevance here? What's the point of of posting about the Irish situation in a thread that is clearly about (and titled so) doing this in the UK.

In the UK James and several other attendees from last years courses will have conversions registered this year. I suspect they will be a mix of individual and company applications so maybe consult with them when you're ready.

I sincerely hope some will find it easy, but the fact is, not all will and that surely is the problem we are facing here.

Look, I'm sure you know your business, but it is in Ireland and although you claim to have had an easy time with DVLA, that is NOT the experience of many here and that is why we are here. To discuss the ins and outs of performing this process with the DVLA, here in the UK and without trying to be rude, your continual posting of how wonderful it is for you, in Ireland is not helping anyone here. We do NOT need any more posts simply repeating how easy it really is. What would be helpful is genuinely constructive advice. Like you are an inspection authority and can perform for us this service that DVLA demands (in some cases). But you're not. In fact, you're not even in the UK.

Do you see where we're going here?

If ZeroEV would contribute here about how they manage with DVLA. What to do and what not to do etc. That really would be appreciated. Smug claims of simple success in Ireland - not so much.

[New Electric Ireland]

Smug claims of simple success in Ireland - not so much.

You won't get much help with that attitude... I know James and others are working on this so maybe reach out to them... don't forget lots going on outside Open Inverter

[eUKenGB]

… I know James and others are working on this so maybe reach out to them... don't forget lots going on outside Open Inverter

Perhaps you could enlighten us as to what? This is an important topic and dear to my heart. DVLA need to pull their socks up and act professionally and correctly. I have had a long discourse with them over the 2001-2017 situation, but even pre 2001 seems also problematic. So what's being done to sort this out, anywhere? I would genuinely like to know.

[New Electric Ireland]

Perhaps you could enlighten us as to what?

DM James who's much more involved in the UK efforts than I am (I left the UK two years ago).

[Boxster EV]

Perhaps you could enlighten us as to what?

DM James who's much more involved in the UK efforts than I am (I left the UK two years ago).

You seem like quite the expert here, but then duck out when any sort of tangible detail is needed. Who is James? Seeing as you recommend him, I’ll DM him and ask for his contributions here.

What’s his username?

[New Electric Ireland]

You seem like quite the expert here

I've been in product development for ~45 years and New Electric have converted more than 1,000 vehicles. I probably have some relevant experience

If you want to know more look out for our next Fully Charged video

but then duck out when any sort of tangible detail is needed.

Not at all. I'm busy trying to get people to think about the customers who buy Open Inverter products.

Who is James? Seeing as you recommend him, I’ll DM him and ask for his contributions here.

James Brown is UK based and is very actively involved with a group of people who've been on our conversion course. They're all facing the same issues with DVLA and we've discussed strategies for influencing government policy (I did a lot work on UK Government EV charging policy ~10 years ago). Here's his OI profile;

memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=350

[Boxster EV]

Yes, we’re aware that you’re adept at using Google and the forum search function.

I’ll send James a message and ask him to contribute here.

[New Electric Ireland]

Yes, we’re aware that you’re adept at using Google and the forum search function.

One of the great things about Google is that you can find the DVLA website which contains the constraints that apply to car conversions. Maybe you should try that before you cut out the boot of your next car?

[Boxster EV]

Yes, we’re aware that you’re adept at using Google and the forum search function.

One of the great things about Google is that you can find the DVLA website which contains the constraints that apply to car conversions. Maybe you should try that before you cut out the boot of your next car?

Yeah righto Kevin.

[Bigpie]

This is the only information I've been able to find on the DVLA website, nothing specific to electric conversions.
https://www.gov.uk/change-vehicle-detai ... ertificate
https://www.gov.uk/change-vehicle-detai ... ce-to-give

Changes you need to update
You must update your V5C if you change any of the following:

colour
engine
cylinder capacity (cc)
fuel type
chassis or bodyshell (replaced or modified)
seating capacity
weight of a large vehicle, for example goods vehicle or campervan

Change of fuel type
You need to provide evidence if:

your existing engine is converted – the confirmation must be on headed paper from the garage that did the work
a new engine is fitted – provide the receipt as confirmation

https://www.gov.uk/change-vehicle-tax-class

Vehicle changes that affect tax
If you make changes to your vehicle it could affect:

how much vehicle tax you pay
your vehicle’s tax class
Changes that affect your vehicle include:

the engine size (cc)
the fuel type
the weight (goods vehicles only)
the number of seats (buses only)
what you use the vehicle for, for example using a minibus for profit

Nothing specific in converting to electric. On the face of it, it looks quite simple, but with the DVLA is never is.

https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration also seems relevant, do they fall under radically altered vehicles?

Keep the original registration number
Your vehicle must have 8 or more points from the table below if you want to keep the original registration number. 5 of these points must come from having the original or new and unmodified chassis, monocoque bodyshell or frame.

Part Points
Chassis, monocoque bodyshell (body and chassis as one unit) or frame - original or new and unmodified (direct from manufacturer) 5
Suspension (front and back) - original 2
Axles (both) - original 2
Transmission - original 2
Steering assembly - original 2
Engine - original 1
Get a ‘Q’ registration number
You will not be able to keep your vehicle’s original registration number if one of the following applies:

it has fewer than 8 points
it has a second-hand or altered chassis, monocoque bodyshell or frame
there’s evidence that 2 vehicles have been welded together to form one (ie ‘cut and shut’)
Your vehicle must pass the relevant type approval test to get a ‘Q’ prefix registration number.

The biggie seems to be Chassis, monocoque bodyshell (body and chassis as one unit) or frame - original or new and unmodified (direct from manufacturer)

In my case, I'd assume with 13 points it would fall outside of a radically altered vehicle.

How to prove I've only removed the engine and not touched anything else sounds tricky.