Outlander rear motor and inverter

[tom91]

3D printed connectors work fine, the pins mate to the standard Dupont style 2.54mm connectors.



Main issue will be getting it to be waterproof which will take some application of sealant.

[ScottS]

Ah great thanks.

Will get an SJ clutch disk to check the fit.

Will also design some blanks/gland plates for the auxiliary power, DC and Motor ports.

I've got a rough design drawn up of the motor flange, will print this out to check the accuracy.

Does someone have the pinout for the vehicle connector? Assuming it's mainly power, ground, CAN. There doesn't appear to be an HVIL loop... I'm assuming that the HV DC is not required to be connected to communicate with the inverter. I suppose the next question will be what is the CAN baud. I am happy to start documenting things on the Wiki for these drives.

[ScottS]

If I made a few of these, would anyone be interested in some? Can either make with Cable Glands (can only really fit M12), as blanks, or custom.

This is the first design so need to trial and iterate, but any recommendations gladly accepted! Obviously for development purposes only!

Plan do do the other ports too if anyone has any particular needs.

[RAS_666]

This any help?
http://mmc-manuals.ru/manuals/outlander ... dex_M1.htm
Unless it takes you to the main page click 90 circuit diagrams and them motor control systems it's got the front and rear inverters.
I have a sla 3d printer resolution on that would be good enough to make the plugs unfortunately my design skills aren't

[SciroccoEV]

Has anyone had luck with 3D printing connectors? Not sure if the resolution and accuracy will be high enough, but I'll give it a go.

I've had coil bobbins 3D printed with great results. The sample pack contained printed connector housings.

I'd recommend this company a look; https://www.3dprint-uk.co.uk/

[ScottS]

This any help?
http://mmc-manuals.ru/manuals/outlander ... dex_M1.htm
Unless it takes you to the main page click 90 circuit diagrams and them motor control systems it's got the front and rear inverters.
I have a sla 3d printer resolution on that would be good enough to make the plugs unfortunately my design skills aren't

Great, thanks! For some reason I didn't actually think to just Google it

Will give that part a go on a normal home 3D printer. May not be high enough resolution for the vehicle connector but will try that too once I've drawn it.

By the way, can highly recommend Onshape and following a few YouTube videos, you'd be designing parts in no time! (Honestly I'm an electrical engineer, only have a few hours of CAD experience).

[SciroccoEV]

Great, thanks! For some reason I didn't actually think to just Google it

Don't worry, that just means you're like 99.99% of the population.

By the way, can highly recommend Onshape and following a few YouTube videos, you'd be designing parts in no time! (Honestly I'm an electrical engineer, only have a few hours of CAD experience).

I tried OnShape after running into the limitations of Designspark Mechanical (a free, but heavily cut down version of SpaceClaim).

The cloud based nature of the beast was a complete deal breaker as sometimes I needed to work in places with marginal or no WiFi.
I found Fusion 360 much easier to use and even Autodesk had to learn their lesson about cloud storage. You can't ever make it reliable enough, instead you have to make its failure graceful. You can use Fusion with no internet connection and have all your data cached on a local drive.

[ScottS]

FYI - I've made a Wiki Page to start collating information on the Motor:

https://openinverter.org/wiki/Mitsubish ... Drive_Unit

Will create one for the inverter.

I've been working on a coupling to a VW gearbox:

I can foresee the driveshaft coupling being a challenge with the splines - anyone have any advice on this? I'm hoping to find a suitable clutch plate (still waiting for the Suzuki Jimny one to arrive) but don't want to have to have a custom shaft coupling made if I can avoid it. Although I did consider whether a low cost way to achieve this would be by laser cutting the splines from thick plate.

[Kevin Sharpe]

I can foresee the driveshaft coupling being a challenge with the splines - anyone have any advice on this?

iirc the last coupler we had made was 80 euro and just required the gearbox and motor at the engineering workshop for a couple of days (they also made an adapter plate at the same time). Watch from 5:00 in this video;

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=30#p4751

[pickmeup]

If you need a bit of CAD work i use CATIA and will be moving onto fusion 360 soon.

Ive currently got a couple of the motors and reduction gearboxes, with one mounted in the front mini subframe on custom mounts.

I was hoping to try and 3d scan the motor and box but havent been able to yet. I also have an inverter and DC-DC /Charger unit of the outlander but i havent touched them yet.

[ScottS]

iirc the last coupler we had made was 80 euro and just required the gearbox and motor at the engineering workshop for a couple of days (they also made an adapter plate at the same time). Watch from 5:00 in this video;

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=30#p4751

That's really useful to know and a good price! Will have to try some machine shops around here then. Was it a specialist in anything in particular? Damian mentioned a Drive shaft shop.

Turns out though, that the Suzuki Jimny clutch does appear to fit! With a very small amount of play, perhaps 1 degree (1mm at outer edge of clutch). Not sure what is an allowable amount of play on a spline shaft, but from what I could see from a sample size of 1 YouTube video, it appears a fairly normal amount.

I've also been documenting the information I can find for the inverter on the Wiki page and have created a wiring diagram for the pinout on the inverter. I'm not sure what the RSDN pin (pin 12) does, appears to be controlled by PHEV-ECU so I expect it's an enable. Looks like I can't upload .xlsx files to the wiki though. Will try and put it here.
Wiki page: https://openinverter.org/wiki/Mitsubish ... r_Inverter

Next steps is to hook up to my CAN logger (I've been developing an ESP32 based Wifi Data Logger with Web interface,SD Card logging if that's of any interest). If anyone has any CAN signal info they're prepared to share, then perhaps I can join you in working through control strategies.

[Mouse]

Thanks for making the Wiki page.

I can foresee the driveshaft coupling being a challenge with the splines - anyone have any advice on this?

I tried a clutch plate from a Skoda Felicia 1.3 P/N 047141034 as it had the correct No of splines and matching ID / OD spline dimensions. However the spline profile is different so it won't go on the shaft. (Younger me might have hammered it on )

A stuck Skoda friction plate

Turns out though, that the Suzuki Jimny clutch does appear to fit! With a very small amount of play, perhaps 1 degree (1mm at outer edge of clutch). Not sure what is an allowable amount of play on a spline shaft, but from what I could see from a sample size of 1 YouTube video, it appears a fairly normal amount.

Do you have a part number for that Suzuki Jimny clutch plate? All the online sellers list it as having 20 splines (motor 18) but it wouldn't be the first time I've mixed and matched things only to discover there were specifications misquoted across all the websites probably all referencing the same xrefrence data.

Also ~1 Deg at the clutch outer edge sounds about right from all the engines and boxes I've bodged together then travelled for 10s of thousands of miles trouble free. Certainly good enough for me to continue a project using something like this.

I had planned on making a resin cast of the shaft (as the motor is too big to easily lug about and risk dropping) and going to the local car breakers yard and matching it up with random things until I got a match. This also might be difficult to arrange under covid restrictions. But if you're found a matching clutch plate that might be the way to go forwards.

[rstevens81]

If the splines are the same as I-meiv, there is a coupler with the part number 2526A144
My motor (outlander) only turned up yesterday so I haven't managed to order one yet or find out how much they cost or even if you can actually buy one.
Hope this helps.

Edit found through here: https://www.online-teile.com/oem-kataloge/
https://cat.ilcats.ru/mitsubishi/?funct ... anguage=en
My local mitsubishi wouldn't tell me anything unless I have a vin!!


Edit fyi ordered one from Germany however totally different shaft DIA (so junk to me ... If anyone has imeiv motor they are welcome ut)

[ScottS]

Do you have a part number for that Suzuki Jimny clutch plate? All the online sellers list it as having 20 splines (motor 18) but it wouldn't be the first time I've mixed and matched things only to discover there were specifications misquoted across all the websites probably all referencing the same xrefrence data.

Yep, I believe it was bought as ADK83106

I think the one I got was a bit of a bargain, eBay link:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BLUEPRINT-AD ... 4257628857

Also ~1 Deg at the clutch outer edge sounds about right from all the engines and boxes I've bodged together then travelled for 10s of thousands of miles trouble free. Certainly good enough for me to continue a project using something like this.

Cool, that sounds good then, from what I could see online seemed about right. Both shafts are hardened so they're not going to wear too much!

If the splines are the same as I-meiv, there is a coupler with the part number 2526A144
My motor (outlander) only turned up yesterday so I haven't managed to order one yet or find out how much they cost or even if you can actually buy one.
Hope this helps.

Edit found through here: https://www.online-teile.com/oem-kataloge/
https://cat.ilcats.ru/mitsubishi/?funct ... anguage=en
My local mitsubishi wouldn't tell me anything unless I have a vin!!


Edit fyi ordered one from Germany however totally different shaft DIA (so junk to me ... If anyone has imeiv motor they are welcome ut)

Regards the iMiev adaptor, was the part you ordered the part number you're referring to but didn't fit the outlander motor? Was it a single piece out of the gearbox?.perhaps we can find the part in the Outlander rear diff?

Interestingly I think the front motor units have different shaft sizes again... Maybe that coupling would fit one of those?

[arber333]

I have a motor, inverter, charger and battery from an outlander installed in a Honda civic. The charger and motor only need 4 can commands between them in total to work. I have shared the information with a couple of people on here already. But I will be in a position to report actually driving a car running the outlander parts in the next few days if I can get a few hours on it away from jobs around my home..

I actually have a stack of chargers, 7 motors and inverters. I also have a front transmission which has 2 motors and the front inverter controls both motors easily with basically the same commands that drive the rear. It looks entirely possible to use both motors in parallel for a really good power output for the money.

Phil

Any news on your Civic car? How is control of Outlander rear motor? Thanks for the update.

A

[markc5442]

I have a motor, inverter, charger and battery from an outlander installed in a Honda civic. The charger and motor only need 4 can commands between them in total to work. I have shared the information with a couple of people on here already. But I will be in a position to report actually driving a car running the outlander parts in the next few days if I can get a few hours on it away from jobs around my home..

I actually have a stack of chargers, 7 motors and inverters. I also have a front transmission which has 2 motors and the front inverter controls both motors easily with basically the same commands that drive the rear. It looks entirely possible to use both motors in parallel for a really good power output for the money.

Phil

Hi Phil,

How did you control the high voltage power supply when switching on. Apparently, the main +ve contactor turns on once the smoothing condenser exceeds a certain voltage via the pre-charge circuit after which the pre-charge circuit turns off. I presume the smoothing condenser circuit voltage is communicated via CAN from the inverter to the PHEV ECU. I assume you're not using the PHEV ECU and therefore controlled the high voltage power supply manually?

Similarly, when the high voltage is shut down, the inverter receives a communication via CAN (from the PHEV ECU) to discharge the smoothing condensers. How did you achieve this, please?

Thanks,
Mark

[RAS_666]

Not sure what Phil has done but the capacitor charges pretty quick with the precharge resistor so you could just time it. Or the inverter and charger outputs the battery bus voltage rapidly over can so that could work too. As for discharge there's a resistor permanently wired across the inverter capacitor.

[markc5442]

Thanks. I am aware of this. It would be elegant if it could all be controlled via CAN but may not be possible without a lot of reverse engineering on an actual Outlander PHEV.

Mark

[bobby_come_lately]

While I'm waiting for my Prius inverter to get sorted I've been playing with an Outlander rear inverter I picked up. I have it hooked up to one of the front motors and I'm getting CAN messages out of it. I'm pre-charging it up to 280V manually and then trying to insert a torque command with 0x287 0x27 0xXX 0x27 0xXX 0x27 0xXX 0x27 0xXX. I've tried various values of XX and I have RSDN pulled low but I'm not seeing any movement.

Does anyone have any pointers they would be willing to share?

[seanyt]

You need 0x285 0x286 0x287 and 0x371. To drive the rear inverter.
Are you only sending one canbus command? Or multiple?

[bobby_come_lately]

You need 0x285 0x286 0x287 and 0x371. To drive the rear inverter.
Are you only sending one canbus command? Or multiple?

I'm sending that 0x287 command at 100ms interval but not doing anything with the others you mention yet.

As I understand it, 0x285 and 0x286 are used with the charger (which I'm also playing with) but I didn't know they had a role with the inverter. Can't see that documented anywhere and they don't appear in the capture I have been looking at from a running Outlander. Would you be able to share a bit more information?

Likewise 0x371 - could you share that one's function?

Thanks for the help.

[jamesn]

I came across this the other day if its of any help: https://www.myoutlanderphev.com/forum/v ... 1&start=10

I have used their formulas and captures to make the attached spreadsheet.

Outlander Torque Commands.ods

(649.01 KiB) Downloaded 948 times

[seanyt]

Data logthe canbus PIDS 285,286,287 and 371 at the same time for rear inverter control i believe.

[arber333]

Data logthe canbus PIDS 285,286,287 and 371 at the same time for rear inverter control i believe.

285 is EVSE CP pulldown enable telegram
286 is charger voltage/current control telegram

287 i dont yet know, this might be the torque telegram?
371 is also unknown to me. Might be the inverter output?

You need to know CAN behaviour. Whatever has lower ID number has priority before other IDs.
Therefore everything below 3xx has priority and is usually reserved for traction or drive elements. Usually IDs above 3xx are reports from those elements.

[jamesn]

As far as i know 0x287 is the torque request from the PHEV ECU that contains the torque requests for all the motors. Bits 1 and 2 when used together provide the torque requests for the front motor, bits 3 and 4 for the rear motor and 5 and 6 generator, I dont know what bits 7 and 8 do...

0x287 - 0x27 0x10 0x27 0x10 0x27 0x10 0x00 0x00 is requesting 0nm from all three.

0x287 - 0x28 0x0A 0x28 0x0A 0x27 0x10 0x00 0x00 is requesting 25nm from the front and rear motors and 0nm from the generator.

Formula is nm = (((bit1x256)+bit2)-10,000)/10