Vcu help

[Aerobat]

Hi,
I am building a unique project, hoping someone could please help. I am building a STOL drag airplane

First type to be electric.
I acquired a duel axial motor setup .2 MAGELEC PROPULSION M24P4-D-19 AXIAL FLUX With matching motor controller's, I don't have a compatible vcu. I was hoping someone could help me get these motors operational. Any help would deeply be appreciated. Thanks William

[arber333]

Hi,
I am building a unique project, hoping someone could please help. I am building a STOL drag airplane
First type to be electric.
I acquired a duel axial motor setup .2 MAGELEC PROPULSION M24P4-D-19 AXIAL FLUX With matching motor controller's, I don't have a compatible vcu. I was hoping someone could help me get these motors operational. Any help would deeply be appreciated. Thanks William

Uh I am aeronautical engineer... studied design and engines.
Let me tell you a warning disclaimer first...
1. Aircraft power requirement is about 3x higher for take off and about 2x in cruise than that of an EV car.
2. Feels a bit like going uphill all the time. You need motor that is able to dissipate heat losses - liquid cooled.

I have seen and inspected the only certified production E-airplane - Pipistrel Velis Electro. Yes it is from Slovenia .
It is a sleek design and its wings are related to laminar glider wings. So it is very efficient while flying cruise. On takeoff and climb though any aircraft will show adverse drag and inefficiency.
Velis uses famous EMRAX 268 motor in single configuration with dual inverters for safety. I think this will give about 60kW of peak power conservatively. https://www.easa.europa.eu/en/downloads/114474/en
Battery pack is made of Tesla style 18650 cells. It is made of 4 packs in front of the pilot and in the back. Cells have a venting outlet in case of emergency to dump the fumes outboard in case of battery fire, which would let the pilot bring the A/C to emergency landing option.
I am not sure of capacity but i think it is somewhere at 30kWh. 4 packs are wired in such a way that 2 by 2 can provide power for A/C in case the other pair stops operationg...
The energy within will keep Velis in the air for about 30min with 10min reserve.

If you compare the speed, drag and weight i think your selection of airframe is about on par with the power requirements for cruise, albeit at slower speed with more drag.
If i understood from the photo your choice of airframe is Zenair 701? Or are you planning on using Wittman Buttercup?
Do you have an idea about the battery?
I see the motor data shows 90kW cont. is that for the pair or individual motors?

Do you have a CAN bus control document for those inverters?

[Aerobat]

I will be using The Zenith 701 airframe. I don't have any can information, this is were I lack experience. I have only a general wiring diagram. This is were I need help.

[Aerobat]

[arber333]

I will be using The Zenith 701 airframe. I don't have any can information, this is were I lack experience. I have only a general wiring diagram. This is were I need help.

Ok, wiring is not a problem. To use CAN bus you would need to have native protocol document. This will show which IDs are used and which bytes carry command info. Also there are reporting IDs where you can receive diagnostics for your drive. You will need those to lit some lights in the cabin to let you know if inverter is overheating...

OK i see CAN speed is 500kbaud which is normal speed for device control.
EDIT: I suggest you buy this kind of CAN analyzer: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004 ... 1802s9NtrC

Could you send me the photo of product plates of inverters so i can get the type and P/N? I can search for the protocol from my end.
Meanwhile as a product owner you can try and contact the company and tell them you are designing your integration and you require CAN protocol to drive their inverter. If you have to buy that document from them as proprietary... so be it.

[Aerobat]

I purchased motors from a third party, I contacted the manufacturer and supplier, but because of liability. They wouldn't provide me with any information. It's been very frustrating trying to find any information on this unit,

I picked these motors for the axial design, duel motors duel controller's and duel battery pack. Double redundancy. Also I am engineering a counter rotating propeller assembly. To eliminate toque effects. These motors are rated to 600 volts and total of 400 kw.

I order the the can analyzer.
Like to say thank you so much for taking your valuable time to help me on this project, I deeply appreciate you sharing your extensive expertise.

[arber333]

Hm... Then you told them about the airplane already?

Maybe you could suggest them to enter into signed agreement where they state they provide you with maintenance data and development data. Reciprocally you provide them with legal statement you absolve them from legal responsibility regarding your project, since you will assemble the application on your end completely..
Heh if they squirm about it you can tell them you will reverse engineer CAN lines anyways. It would just be easier to get their data directly.

Oh and i advise you to check about your state legislation on reverse engineering. Sometimes a state law will prevent reverse engineering on NEW products, but if you are doing a conversion no such limitation may apply. This would mean you would have to build an airplane with petrol engine and later convert it to Electric...

If that doesnt work your best bet would be to get someone with complete inverter-motor-VCU assembly and connect to it with that suggested CAN logger and then reverse engineer CAN commands from logs and throttle position.

Aircraft and boat drive is really simpler than car. While car requires dynamic torque control you can program direct torque command according to counter torque that propeller provides and RPM you want for different regimes of flight. Maybe that could be a simple 2D matrix RPM vs torque required.

[arber333]

On another note...

Maybe you could use Lebowski drive. It is now trully opensource.
https://endless-sphere.com/sphere/threa ... on.104895/
Interface is really simple for driving a prop. Lebowski has a way of sensing magnet-coil interaction inside PMSM motors, this means you could teoretically use inverter without resolver or any sensor. Simply advance throttle and motor starts to spin.
Now in a car this is not possible since motor needs to move 1T vehicle, but with prop it just needs to turn 10kg propeller and move some air.

Inverter of choice may be Chevy Volt inverter with dual IGBT units since it was meant as a generator.
https://www.diyelectriccar.com/threads/ ... 2/#replies
viewtopic.php?t=697
Both IGBTs are capable of 400V and 600A current, watercooled.
I think your motor has a lot of poles. This means primary PWM needs to be refreshed quicker than on other PMSM motors. EMRAX produces annoying sound at low frequency such as 8kHz. If i applied 16kHz to it it would calm down, but then inverter runs hotter that way...

[Aerobat]

The Lebowski drive sounds promising. Will do more research.
I emailed the supplier again, let them know I would sign a liability waiver . Hopefully we can get information needed.
This is going to be a purpose build plane, for Stol Drag. It will not be used for cross country. Only need to be capable of 30 flight time and stay close to airport.

[Aerobat]

I contacted manufacturer and supplier, they will not provide any information, after further research on VOLT inverter, I think these will fit my application perfectly.

I read all information in the links you provided. Honestly it's a little over my head. I only have basic understanding. I can build circuitry and do minimal programming,

Is they anyone can help me by taking an more elementary approach. Lol. Like to use the VOLT inverter, lawbawski brain .
Thanks

[ryebread]

I am considering purchasing these same motors(or similar, also from Magelec). The seller on Ebay who I would buy from says that he will send a user manual and a CAN msg-list. If I do so I'll share here, but I am concerned at the lack of resources reagrding this company. I haven't seen any information on Magelec on any other forum. And there seems to be an abundance of very low-priced motors from them on Ebay. Does someone with more experience in this field have any advice with these motors? https://www.ebay.com/itm/126379072998

[arber333]

I am considering purchasing these same motors(or similar, also from Magelec). The seller on Ebay who I would buy from says that he will send a user manual and a CAN msg-list. If I do so I'll share here, but I am concerned at the lack of resources reagrding this company. I haven't seen any information on Magelec on any other forum. And there seems to be an abundance of very low-priced motors from them on Ebay. Does someone with more experience in this field have any advice with these motors? https://www.ebay.com/itm/126379072998

What kind of application?
What i have seen about motors and inverters from Magelec it seems like moderate power inverter 500A 400V and 120kW motor. This things do look like they can absorb some overtorque. It surprised me motor is rated for 120kW continuous! Probably a good option for direct drive application.

I would say axial motors need some revolutions to get up to torque but when there they provide consistent torque. Good for prop shaft drive and generator maybe not so for car transmission drive.

[ryebread]

Application is a 2speed electric super sport motorcycle. These should provide a lot more power than I need but I will probably run only one of the motors individually at first.

[Sparky 61]

Hi, I am also interested in purchasing a couple of these motor as well for a land speed project that I'm working on, have you had any luck with getting any more information on how to operate these motors.

[Aerobat]

I purchased the motors for the advertised specs.
They are actually rated at 200kw apiece at 600volts.
I have all the data, including CAN protocol.
You will not find any outside support. I contacted manufacturer and supplier directly, they will not provide any information or support. We are kind of on your own. I would be willing to help.
I am not using the inverters purchased. Because at the time I couldn't find CAN data and wanted to proceed with my project. So if you do purchased motors, I would be willing to sell inverters at a discount price and provide all CAN data.

[arber333]

Application is a 2speed electric super sport motorcycle. These should provide a lot more power than I need but I will probably run only one of the motors individually at first.

Hm... let me give you connection to a guy who made 2 custom bikes with Elaphe https://in-wheel.com/sl/inwheel motor. 1300Nm of torque and 1000rpm. This all meet at 2.1s to 60mph!!! Let him know i gave you the contact
http://customnorth.com/movies

[Sparky 61]

I purchased the motors for the advertised specs.
They are actually rated at 200kw apiece at 600volts.
I have all the data, including CAN protocol.
You will not find any outside support. I contacted manufacturer and supplier directly, they will not provide any information or support. We are kind of on your own. I would be willing to help.
I am not using the inverters purchased. Because at the time I couldn't find CAN data and wanted to proceed with my project. So if you do purchased motors, I would be willing to sell inverters at a discount price and provide all CAN data.

Hi, what would be the cost of your inverters and do you supply the schematic diagram with them.

[Aerobat]

I would take $1,000.00 for two inverters and provide wiring schematics and all necessary CAN data. You pay shipping, the inverters are in original factory packaging.

[fprase]

Hi, Any update on the data sheets? I would like to purchase the motors but would like to see some pinouts of the resolver before I pull the trigger!

[Aerobat]

Here's some info, should be helpful

190315IFL100-36-ZT Product Specification (R3_0).pdf

(1.35 MiB) Downloaded 672 times

190315 IFL100-36-ZT MCU_CAN MsgList_V3_0-1.pdf

(824.18 KiB) Downloaded 630 times

00003317-Workhorse-e-Powertrain System User Manual - A06.pdf

(3.91 MiB) Downloaded 638 times

00001397-B01 - M24PX-19 datasheet-2.pdf

(2.15 MiB) Downloaded 763 times

Magelec-Propulsion-Brochure (1).pdf

(2.09 MiB) Downloaded 744 times

[marcexec]

Cool project. let me know if you are stuck with the Lebowski when you go this route, I have played with it a little: https://endless-sphere.com/sphere/threa ... ep.119952/

There might even be a few boards still for sale on this forum: viewtopic.php?p=61463&hilit=lebowski#p61463

[ryebread]

Hi, Any update on the data sheets? I would like to purchase the motors but would like to see some pinouts of the resolver before I pull the trigger!

Howdy, hope it's not too late, I can get you pinouts and CAN protocol if you want. Only issue I'm having is that the inverter has two sets of CAN wires, one labeled Vehicle CAN, and one labeled Debugging CAN. The Vehicle CAN doesn't give a nice looking signal over an oscilloscope but the Debugging CAN does. However, I only have CAN protocol for the vehicle CAN, not for debugging. So I'm a little lost on getting it setup.

[uhi22]

If a CAN does not show the usual sqare waves on oscilloscope it most likely is missing the proper termination.

[Aerobat]

Hi Did anyone get these motors operational with the original controllers? I could really use some help on the can bus side

[ryebread]

I have not gotten the motor operational with the original inverters, but am at a point where my makeshift VCU communicates with the inverter. All error states on the inverter are 0 (no errors), but it appears to be stuck in standby mode, and the voltage reading seems to be significantly off, (unless I'm reading the CAN wrong). I can maybe answer CAN questions you have, but I don't know how much help I'll be as my motor is also non-operational.